105mm Sherman and Brummbar should be less durable
7 Jan 2022, 11:26 AM
#41
Posts: 1515
If you want to counter a brummbar, you need a TD. AT guns won't scratch the paintwork on it. I don't think that the brummbar is OP, but it definitely plays into the USF/Sov infantry weaknesses. Both rifles and cons are primarily short to medium range, meaning that they have to come in close to the enemy infantry hugging the brummbar, hence less time to react once the fat bastard fires (you can dodge max range brummbar shots). ZiS does not have the following problem, but the USF AT gun will bounce a lot on the vet0 brummbar, even more so on vet2 (had a game on Mud where my AT bounced 6 shots in a row on brummbar, bad RNG sure but the stats don't really allow for good RNG)
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7 Jan 2022, 12:23 PM
#42
Posts: 786 | Subs: 1
If you want to counter a brummbar, you need a TD. AT guns won't scratch the paintwork on it. I don't think that the brummbar is OP, but it definitely plays into the USF/Sov infantry weaknesses. Both rifles and cons are primarily short to medium range, meaning that they have to come in close to the enemy infantry hugging the brummbar, hence less time to react once the fat bastard fires (you can dodge max range brummbar shots). ZiS does not have the following problem, but the USF AT gun will bounce a lot on the vet0 brummbar, even more so on vet2 (had a game on Mud where my AT bounced 6 shots in a row on brummbar, bad RNG sure but the stats don't really allow for good RNG)
correction: a single zis gun wont really cut it if you, god forbid, have no tanks + snares to scare it away
+ brummbar barrage shoots 152mm death cannons at an ~1.8 second interval, and two to three hits reliably kill an AT gun. Pre nerf zis barrage was considered overpowered at it's 2.0 second firing interval.
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7 Jan 2022, 15:16 PM
#43
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
+ brummbar barrage shoots 152mm death cannons at an ~1.8 second interval, and two to three hits reliably kill an AT gun. Pre nerf zis barrage was considered overpowered at it's 2.0 second firing interval.
a 1.8 s barrage should indeed be considered op... realistically, however, the brummbär fires only about half as fast (~3.5 s between the 1st and 2nd and ~4 s between the 2nd and 3rd shot). still more than enough firepower to catch a single AT gun off-guard, as it better should for the price and timing.
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7 Jan 2022, 16:04 PM
#44
Posts: 1289
a 1.8 s barrage should indeed be considered op... realistically, however, the brummbär fires only about half as fast (~3.5 s between the 1st and 2nd and ~4 s between the 2nd and 3rd shot). still more than enough firepower to catch a single AT gun off-guard, as it better should for the price and timing.
The barrage is what he was talking about. The regular shots have decent time between them. Wich is fine for the brums balance.
His point that the zis was considered op with its 2 secs intval barrage, wich is a very valid one.
The brum barrage is insane compared to the zis one, and i believe cheaper as well. There is nothing you can do once it barrages a team weapon, unlike the zis barrage wich while good wasent a wipe ability.
No cost justifies not being able to have a chance at escaping/dodging.
7 Jan 2022, 16:26 PM
#45
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
The barrage is what he was talking about. The regular shots have decent time between them. Wich is fine for the brums balance.
His point that the zis was considered op with its 2 secs intval barrage, wich is a very valid one.
The brum barrage is insane compared to the zis one, and i believe cheaper as well. There is nothing you can do once it barrages a team weapon, unlike the zis barrage wich while good wasent a wipe ability.
No cost justifies not being able to have a chance at escaping/dodging.
yeah i'm aware he was talking about the barrage, that's what i was referring to as well. my point is that the interval between the shots of the bunker busting barrage isn't around 2 sec, which would truly be insane, but closer to double that. now don't get me wrong, i think this is still a very strong ability, but the comparison with the pre-nerf zis barrage is pretty far fetched imho.
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7 Jan 2022, 17:55 PM
#46
Posts: 1289
yeah i'm aware he was talking about the barrage, that's what i was referring to as well. my point is that the interval between the shots of the bunker busting barrage isn't around 2 sec, which would truly be insane, but closer to double that. now don't get me wrong, i think this is still a very strong ability, but the comparison with the pre-nerf zis barrage is pretty far fetched imho.
Yeah it probably isent 2 seconds but the fact remain both zis and brum can barrage from either 60 or 50 range. The zis wich imo never reliably wiped team weapons was regarded op and got nerfed. The brumbar bunkerbuster range got a big buff and as it stands wich ever team weapon it shoots at has a very very high chance to get wiped. Its almost a garantee from what i have seen. And it costs almost nothing to fire it if my memory serves me right.
7 Jan 2022, 19:10 PM
#47
Posts: 1515
correction: a single zis gun wont really cut it if you, god forbid, have no tanks + snares to scare it away
+ brummbar barrage shoots 152mm death cannons at an ~1.8 second interval, and two to three hits reliably kill an AT gun. Pre nerf zis barrage was considered overpowered at it's 2.0 second firing interval.
True, but I'm mostly talking about stock penetration, so that first hit, when you didn't activate AP ammo (or don't have muni). It's not really unexpected that ZiS was nerfed. A couple of loud axis mains, coupled with the inability to balance from the balance team and you have what you have. Still, having said that, the game is in a good balance state. 1v1 and 2v2s are quite balanced. 3v3+ is a problem, but that's mostly due to map design, especially in 3v3. You either have a nicely designed map like Steppes which is just too extra large for 3v3, or you have a good size but lanes which one MG42/34 can completely lock down, forcing you to go mortar, and if you go for a mortar with USF, you will lose to blobs since USF rifles are close/medium range units, and grens/volks/obers are long range
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7 Jan 2022, 19:59 PM
#48
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
One should simply not compare zis barrage and Brumbar barrage.
Apples and oranges...
Apples and oranges...
8 Jan 2022, 03:10 AM
#49
Posts: 682
correction: a single zis gun wont really cut it if you, god forbid, have no tanks + snares to scare it away
+ brummbar barrage shoots 152mm death cannons at an ~1.8 second interval, and two to three hits reliably kill an AT gun. Pre nerf zis barrage was considered overpowered at it's 2.0 second firing interval.
While you're comparing a vet 0 barrage on an AT gun in t1 to a t4 AI unit's barrage, let's compare mortars and ml20s/lefhs
/s
8 Jan 2022, 08:27 AM
#50
Posts: 1289
One should simply not compare zis barrage and Brumbar barrage.
Apples and oranges...
And yet they do the same thing, their use is the excact same. Its more of a red vs green apple thing.
The zis is much less mobile and much less durable and does less damage although cheaper to build. The barrage is more expensive.
Its barrage was nerfed to allow time to move mg,s etc, it supposidly wiped to much or left the wt with so little hp is was suposedly basicly a wipe.
The brum barrage is a garateed wipe on tw in most cases. And it does this from safety with high hp high armour and good mobility. Its cost to use are laughably low.
That it requires full tech and the brum is quite a bit more expensive is no valid reason for the b buster barrage to be so cheap and so much stronger compared to simaler/same abilities such as the zis barrage. To put it in your words "its simply badly designed"
8 Jan 2022, 09:06 AM
#51
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
And yet they do the same thing, their use is the excact same. Its more of a red vs green apple thing.
The zis is much less mobile and much less durable and does less damage although cheaper to build. The barrage is more expensive.
Its barrage was nerfed to allow time to move mg,s etc, it supposidly wiped to much or left the wt with so little hp is was suposedly basicly a wipe.
The brum barrage is a garateed wipe on tw in most cases. And it does this from safety with high hp high armour and good mobility. Its cost to use are laughably low.
That it requires full tech and the brum is quite a bit more expensive is no valid reason for the b buster barrage to be so cheap and so much stronger compared to simaler/same abilities such as the zis barrage. To put it in your words "its simply badly designed"
Not really.
Zis gun is ATG that gets the extra ability to barrage from the start of the game at the cost of grenade (so its cost is also "laughably low").
Brumbar is a heavy assault gun that it role it to provide support fire and even has to get vet 1 before barrage becomes available which is late in the game.
Both abilities are fine and comparing them will is not really helpful in anyway.
Funny thing is that you do not seem to complain about the 105mm barrage shemran gets....
8 Jan 2022, 11:22 AM
#52
Posts: 1515
Funny thing is that you do not seem to complain about the 105mm barrage shemran gets....
The 105mm is a doctrinal tank, mediocre at best and extremely seldom played in higher ranks because it's in a piss poor commander, probably the worst commander USF has. And in the end, the 105mm barrage is inferior to the BB, in penetration, AOE, you name it. Only not sure if the scatter is worse on the 105mm, but as far as I know, the 105mm has worse scatter which can be either a blessing or a curse, depending if you want to displace an AT gun or barrage an area for effect.
So go back to the hole you crawled out of
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8 Jan 2022, 11:35 AM
#53
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
This is what happens when the counter is also what the unit is made fight against (like AT infantry vs AI tank). Countering your counter.
ATGs are not meant to be the counter to a T4 150 fuel heavy AI/breakthrough vehicle. TDs and tanks are what counter it, not infantry based AT.
8 Jan 2022, 11:52 AM
#54
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The 105mm is a doctrinal tank, mediocre at best and extremely seldom played in higher ranks because it's in a piss poor commander, probably the worst commander USF has. And in the end, the 105mm barrage is inferior to the BB, in penetration, AOE, you name it. Only not sure if the scatter is worse on the 105mm, but as far as I know, the 105mm has worse scatter which can be either a blessing or a curse, depending if you want to displace an AT gun or barrage an area for effect.
So go back to the hole you crawled out of
Is all that some how related to the fact that zis barrage and Brumbar barrage comparison is pointless?
If you want to make a comparison of the Brumbar/105mm barrage, feel free to provide the stats or test results for such a comparison because you "being sure" is not an indication of anything.
The fact that in your opinion the penetration values of the barrages of brumbar and 105 somehow impactful in such a comparison make doubt if you have a decent understanding of game mechanics.
(if in your opinion it is impactful feel free to explain how).
Now can we tone down (I guess stopping is out of the question) this everything axis is op and everything allies have is up rant, by using arbitrary comparisons like the one between a zis and brumbar?
8 Jan 2022, 12:22 PM
#55
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
While I have absolutely no interest in getting drawn into your little feud, you both brought up a good point with regard to the stats of the 105mm barrage. From my experience and limited testing the ability is a bit underwhelming, so I'd be interested to get some numbers on scatter, AoE, ROF and the like. The patchnotes aren't exactly verbose on that matter, unfortunately, so since you were talking stats before I thought I might ask if you (or anyone else maybe) know something more specific?
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8 Jan 2022, 14:13 PM
#57
Posts: 1289
Not really.
Zis gun is ATG that gets the extra ability to barrage from the start of the game at the cost of grenade (so its cost is also "laughably low").
Brumbar is a heavy assault gun that it role it to provide support fire and even has to get vet 1 before barrage becomes available which is late in the game.
Both abilities are fine and comparing them will is not really helpful in anyway.
Funny thing is that you do not seem to complain about the 105mm barrage shemran gets....
Getting the brum to vet 1 is easy.
The zis barrage at least cost the same as a nade. Unlike the bb barrage.
The brumbar already does a very good job as an assault/breakthrough unit. A abilitie vet or other wise wich has almost double the range and rof of the normal round while retaining its damage profile per round is way over the top. Even more when that unit is also very durable.
The range buff should have come with a rof nerf on the barrage imo. Then its still very potent but doesnt outright wipe stuff.
The 105 barrage i have not seen used or used my self in quute a while. The reason is pretty clear. Its lackluster to say the least and doctrinal.
8 Jan 2022, 14:38 PM
#58
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Getting the brum to vet 1 is easy.
That is false.
The XP value of the brumbar is 2040 that translates to 51 conscripts killed.
It certainty is more difficult than that getting a zis barrage and it certain becomes available later in game.
The zis barrage at least cost the same as a nade. Unlike the bb barrage.
Zis barrage cost 35, brumabar barrage cost 30.
Now if in your opinion 5 mu is game breaking I would have not problem with price being increased by 5 munition.
The brumbar already does a very good job as an assault/breakthrough unit. A abilitie vet or other wise wich has almost double the range and rof of the normal round while retaining its damage profile per round is way over the top. Even more when that unit is also very durable.
The range buff should have come with a rof nerf on the barrage imo. Then its still very potent but doesnt outright wipe stuff.
The 105 barrage i have not seen used or used my self in quute a while. The reason is pretty clear. Its lackluster to say the least and doctrinal.
What range buff? brumbar has not received a range buff.
You are entitled to believe that comparison between an ATG with secondary role of indirect fire support and T4 assault gun is helpful when it is clear it is not. I done wasting my time trying to explain obvious things to you.
But at least try to get your fact straight...
The zis gun is considered by top players a very good unit and part of the reason is it's barrage, which is no way UP.
As I have pointed out both unit abilities are fine for the respective units.
8 Jan 2022, 14:57 PM
#59
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
That is false.
The XP value of the brumbar is 2040 that translates to 51 conscripts killed.
Please test before you make such claims. Brummbar needs 30 vet0 Conscripts + some damage to get vet1. But that number is quite far off of a real game, since infantry is vetted at this point. Also UKF and USF exist with much more valuable infantry.
What range buff? brumbar has not received a range buff.
He is talking about the 60 range of the barrage as he states in the same sentence.
8 Jan 2022, 15:43 PM
#60
Posts: 327
ATGs are not meant to be the counter to a T4 150 fuel heavy AI/breakthrough vehicle. TDs and tanks are what counter it, not infantry based AT.
Leaving aside the question of whether ATGs, which are super vulnerable to a lot of stuff in late-game already, should be expected to counter armoured vehicles in general - whether they come at a certain tier and fuel cost - the TD scenario doesn't happen in an isolation. It happens when Brummbaers come with heavy TD support of their own, which often invalidates whatever TDs Allied players can bring.
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