1. I mentioned this one multiple times
2. with 640/800 HP and 230 armor it is everything BUT a glass cannon. None of the other 60 range TDs gets any survivability bonus. Why does the JP4 need it?
3. Again, Axis mediums can go toe to toe to damaged Allied TDs to finish them of. Additionally, the Panther is suitable for deep dives and getting it out alive afterwards.
4. Again, as all other TDs are. This is nothing special to the JP4, so this is no reason to explain its performance.
None of these builds you suggested will really be worth it. Even with such an investment, you will not be able to kill the JP4. And if you consider that the OKW player will have JP4+Raketenwerfer, your USF and SOV combo will not be enough and lose over time.
Deep medium dives are the only option against the JP4. Your TD won't kill it, your ATG won't chase. Handheld AT will likely not do enough damage (unless you go double ranger bazooka blob). Even double ATG (unvetted) builds will only have ~50% kill chance with their first two salvos against an unvetted JP4 and that is already assuming all shots hit. Once the JP4 vets up, there is barely any way to get that much damage in in that short amount of time.
Your best non-doc chance is to dive far behind this thing (even from the side you might get front armor and ~50% bounce chance). And you're diving against the faction that has a quick snare on basically every mainline squad. Best outcome for an Allied player is to trade slightly up with a medium for the JP4. From my experience there is a decent chance that the dive fails and you just lose the medium, so that this strategy overall is more often than not a trade down.
USF vs OKW has been a balance problem from the outset. Mucking around with the JP4 is not going to fix balance.
I see you didn't mention a Zis-Gun and a single SU85 hard counters the JP4. Throw in a couple Penal squads with AT Rifle and it's no longer a problem.
With USF, yes they might struggle against a JP4, but the USF has such an infantry advantage over OKW it should not need to get an ATG and a Jackson to kill the JP4.
Another point you failed to mention are the maps, certain maps provide excellent opportunity to use the JP4 effectively, other maps do not.
Yeah. I admit it's not a glass cannon, but it doesn't do the damage of one either - so it's balanced.
You could easily use a Sherman bulldozer to tank damage whilst your M10's swarm it. More options include Rifleman with zooks, double ATG's or double Jackson's and Rifleman charge to spot. So many options to counter the JP4.
USF vs OKW has been a balance problem from the outset. Mucking around with the JP4 is not going to fix balance.
I did not claim that the JP4 will fix balance for everything, and I never condensed my argumentation into a OKW vs USF only issue. As I stated before: Soviets have issues, USF has issues, UKF has the only non-doc unit that the JP4 is sub-par against.
I see you didn't mention a Zis-Gun and a single SU85 hard counters the JP4. Throw in a couple Penal squads with AT Rifle and it's no longer a problem.
With USF, yes they might struggle against a JP4, but the USF has such an infantry advantage over OKW it should not need to get an ATG and a Jackson to kill the JP4.
I did, when I mentioned that ZiS+SU85 will usually lose over time vs JP4 and Raketen, which is basically true for almost any Allied combo of ATG+TD, except for maybe the British that can equalize with their very good ATG. Handheld AT is not a good counter to long range TDs in the first place. Especially not PTRS that can't burst.
Another point you failed to mention are the maps, certain maps provide excellent opportunity to use the JP4 effectively, other maps do not.
I don't expect you to read through 5 pages of posts, but I did mention that. Very open maps are bad for casemates in general, like Steppes and General mud. Those are among the least played maps. Even on half open maps like Alliance of Defiance, the JP4 works great. You need to be able to make sure that the 1-2 most obvious flanking paths are cover or mined, which is possible on most maps.
Yeah. I admit it's not a glass cannon, but it doesn't do the damage of one either - so it's balanced.
It has generally the shortest TTK against its enemies compared to all other TDs and their respective targets (apart from a vet3 StuG, which only has 50 range and is therefore easier to counter by Allies).
You could easily use a Sherman bulldozer to tank damage whilst your M10's swarm it. More options include Rifleman with zooks, double ATG's or double Jackson's and Rifleman charge to spot. So many options to counter the JP4.
Again, I disagree on handheld AT. Still, this shows the issue. Your suggestion has to go to a double Jackson to counter the JP4 or a doctrinal Sherman with at least two doctrinal light TDs. I've stated already why two ATGs do not really work, you completely ignored that point.
Zoning is countering. You don't need to kill to counter. If the unit is too beat up to stay on the front or at risk of it (armour is just RNG after all) then it's going to gtfo.
The jp4 is a great TD, but it's a defensive one is an aggressive faction. It doesn't have the chase or burst damage nor the self spotting of allied TDs. It doesn't have the support structure that the su85 has, or turret of WFAA.
The jp4 is good because it must be, from a design standpoint.
OKW gets either squishy lights or expensive but armoured mediums+. You simply cannot lump them in with "other TDs are squishy" and ignore faction design. There is no cheap t34 for shock and expendable awe. There is no Sherman HE. there is no cromwell with flanking speed to get up in them guts. Jp4 gives okw a fighting chance against cheap allied armour whilst still holding true to faction flavor and design.
Zoning is countering. You don't need to kill to counter. If the unit is too beat up to stay on the front or at risk of it (armour is just RNG after all) then it's going to gtfo.
The jp4 is a great TD, but it's a defensive one is an aggressive faction. It doesn't have the chase or burst damage nor the self spotting of allied TDs. It doesn't have the support structure that the su85 has, or turret of WFAA.
ATGs do not make 60 range TDs useless. If that were the case, Allies would be vaporized every single game. It slightly reduces their performance, but what matters in the end is still that you could threaten a kill to really force the enemy tank to the backline and force instant repairs, otherwise your opponent can just repair at his earliest convenience. This is way harder to do with a JP4 than any other TD.
The JP4 also has decent support within its faction. Team weapons, quick and available snares and affordable mines are present in all OKW builds.
The jp4 is good because it must be, from a design standpoint.
OKW gets either squishy lights or expensive but armoured mediums+. You simply cannot lump them in with "other TDs are squishy" and ignore faction design. There is no cheap t34 for shock and expendable awe. There is no Sherman HE. there is no cromwell with flanking speed to get up in them guts. Jp4 gives okw a fighting chance against cheap allied armour whilst still holding true to faction flavor and design.
I disagree on most (not all) of this.
In my opinion, the issue is the following: It does not make sense to get the JP4 at the 15 minute mark, because your P4 will do just as well against Allied mediums while giving you AI to counter the increasing strength of Allied infantry. It allows you to not invest into Obersoldaten.
The price difference between a JP4 and at least Cromwell/Sherman is similar to the price difference of especially the Ost P4 with Firefly/Jackson/SU85. Still, Allied TDs do not have a ~15 seconds TTK vs mediums while Soviets and USF can potentially lack an ATG in their tech. This shows that the cost difference is no reason for a vehicle to perform as strong offensively or defensively.
The next reason could be general faction design. OKW does not need to make up for lack of AT in other areas since they have a decent ATG and snares. If OKW lacks AI, keeping the JP4's AT strong is probably not the right way to do it.
What keeps the JP4 "bad" is not its performance, but its timing within the faction. Either you don't need it (P4 is decent enough at fighting Allied mediums as well as makes up for more and more upgraded Allied infantry around the 15 min mark) or you don't want it later on because P4 and JP4 do not synergize as well.
EDIT: P4 is obviously not better at fighting mediums, but the better package overall. Edited the text to reflect that.
This is false. OKW have a much better opening than USF does. Especially with the amount of Bleed a Kubelwagon can do. Factor in the power spike from Volks STGs, the fact that you will generally have more units on the field than a USF player as well as access to things like Fallshirmjaeger/JLI early on in a match make USF/OKW one of the most difficult matchups in the entire game (for USF). Hence why OKW have significantly higher Win Rates (I believe its at 60%) compared to USF.
What keeps the JP4 "bad" is not its performance, but its timing within the faction. Either you don't need it (P4 is better at fighting Allied mediums as well as makes up for more and more upgraded Allied infantry around the 15 min mark) or you don't want it later on because P4 and JP4 do not synergize as well.
Agree. Outside of the KT+JP4 combo the unit has no place in this faction. Put this unit into ost t4 instead of panther and you gonna feel how broken the unit can be.
This is false. OKW have a much better opening than USF does. Especially with the amount of Bleed a Kubelwagon can do. Factor in the power spike from Volks STGs, the fact that you will generally have more units on the field than a USF player as well as access to things like Fallshirmjaeger/JLI early on in a match make USF/OKW one of the most difficult matchups in the entire game (for USF). Hence why OKW have significantly higher Win Rates (I believe its at 60%) compared to USF.
What does OKW vs USF win rate % have anything to do with my opinion that USF infantry is superior to OKW's. You have a Captain squad which is extremely versatile, combined with Rifleman with BARS, nades, smoke - how are you not winning against Volks?
ATGs do not make 60 range TDs useless.i never made that claim, i said that zoning is countering. a jp4 isnt going to push into a bunch of AT, because even with its armour, it isnt a risk it should take. If that were the case, Allies would be vaporized every single game. It slightly reduces their performance, but what matters in the end is still that you could threaten a kill to really force the enemy tank to the backline and force instant repairs, otherwise your opponent can just repair at his earliest convenience. This is way harder to do with a JP4 than any other TD. this is what i was saying
The JP4 also has decent support within its faction. Team weapons, quick and available snares and affordable mines are present in all OKW builds. OKW isnt a turtle faction, their tools are not designed to assist with a defensive nature. they are agressive. you look at their roster and its clear as day. they have tools to support, yes, all factions do, but their units are best suited dictating the terms of battle, not reacting to them.
I disagree on most (not all) of this.
In my opinion, the issue is the following: It does not make sense to get the JP4 at the 15 minute mark, because your P4 will do just as well against Allied mediums while giving you AI to counter the increasing strength of Allied infantry. It allows you to not invest into Obersoldaten. who in the seven hells suggested or even alluded to getting a JP4 at 15 min?
The price difference between a JP4 and at least Cromwell/Sherman is similar to the price difference of especially the Ost P4 with Firefly/Jackson/SU85. Still, Allied TDs do not have a ~15 seconds TTK vs mediums while Soviets and USF can potentially lack an ATG in their tech. This shows that the cost difference is no reason for a vehicle to perform as strong offensively or defensively. you are completely and entirely missing what i said and are having a shower argument with yourself her friend. you are reading in between the lines of a different book in a different language...
The next reason could be general faction design. OKW does not need to make up for lack of AT in other areas since they have a decent ATG and snares. If OKW lacks AI, keeping the JP4's AT strong is probably not the right way to do it. The jp4 is good because of OKW design. all of their non light tanks are durable. outside that, the JP4 offers OKW a way to combat the hordes of allied tanks IF they are on the backfoot. think like the way the su76 or stug is, but in the flavour of the OKW.
whats more, their AT gun is often regarded as shit tier, because as a defensive unit, it doesnt match its contemporaries, where it excels, is being used as support AT for your infantry, since it too can retreat. this again, because OKW is supposed to be making the pushes and not taking them.
i have no idea what you are talking about with AI power and the JP4. anyone who isnt codguy knows that the JP4 isnt an AI unit, not sure what you are talking about at all actually in that last chunk nor how it relates to what i said in the least...
What keeps the JP4 "bad" is not its performance, but its timing within the faction. Either you don't need it (P4 is decent enough at fighting Allied mediums as well as makes up for more and more upgraded Allied infantry around the 15 min mark) or you don't want it later on because P4 and JP4 do not synergize as well. you appear to not understand the JP4 and the role it fills. it isnt a build every game unit. its a "im glad thats there" unit. its timing doesnt matter because you dont rush it, you build it if you need it. it doesnt synergize with the p4 for the reasons i listed above, its a defensive unit on an offensive faction. you shouldnt "want" to build it, you build it when you need to. you get it when the enemy had double fuel and you know your p4 is going to get cock slapped without getting a shot off by tds or swarmed with t34s. its there if you need it and when you need it it is a great unit.
EDIT: P4 is obviously not better at fighting mediums, but the better package overall. Edited the text to reflect that.
JP4 is so controversial that nobody can agree about actually anything Some say it is UP, some OP, some say it is slightly bad, some decent. What the hell.
The jp4 is good because it must be, from a design standpoint.
OKW gets either squishy lights or expensive but armoured mediums+. You simply cannot lump them in with "other TDs are squishy" and ignore faction design. There is no cheap t34 for shock and expendable awe. There is no Sherman HE. there is no cromwell with flanking speed to get up in them guts. Jp4 gives okw a fighting chance against cheap allied armour whilst still holding true to faction flavor and design.
p4 gets almost heavy tank level scatter with vet, while already having rather good scatter for a medium combined with good AOE and great OHK potential. Yes, it has a premium price tag, but it is well worth it.
JP4 is in a weird spot for me. I use it exclusively as a tank-hunter-hunter. If I'm getting overrun by 3 X T34s I'd rather have a Panther. If I'm fighting Pershing or Comets I'd rather have a Panther.
I cry every time when my Jacksons/Fireflys are dominating the field and suddenly he builds a JP4.
It's a strange TD which has bonus health at vet 2 and very high armour, but low pen for some reason. In some situations I can see it being too powerful, while in most cases I just won't build it, but overall I think its identity is too niche and it doesn't come onto the field very often because of it.
I've been letting USF down with my abysmal USF play in the past couple of months lol. No more 50 cal and pack howie aboose, so I'm still struggling to adapt and re-adjust.
Admittedly OKW does have a 58.9% winrate in 4v4 if you're looking at the "top 200" statistics.
800 recorded matches nowhere near enough of a reliable sample size. For comparison in 700 matches in top 200 3v3 OKW has a win ratio of 44.5%, despite no significant differences between the two modes. Win rates swing all over the place until you get a few thousand matches in.
Why would you compare global faction ratios to meassure faction vs faction balance?
It is the logical thing to do and makes sense when balancing a game. It is one of many aspects of balance to look at. Dota 2, League of Legends and even Rainbow Six Siege all use numerical data as an indication of balance across all skills levels. These are all E-Sport titles which means balance is an utmost priority. COH 2 attempted to be an E-Sport but failed miserably because most of the player base feels the game is poorly balanced. Rightfully so when you and your team are responsible for creating non-stop game breaking issues such as SturmTiger, Fallshirmjaegers, JLI and a whole list of other things over the years. How do you expect new players to stick to the game when there is constant issues and they feel the game is essentially broken? Despite your well intentioned efforts, I stand by my opinion that the Balance Team has made the game worse over time since they started.
Granted this is League of Legends (a game I do not like) however the balance approach they take allows for fairness to be had across all skill levels. This allows the game to grow and bring in new players. COH2 on the other hand provides zero information with its generic tooltips that explain nothing with zero numerical data anywhere to be found besides unit/ability costs. Second COH2 does not have equal levels of
accessibility which lends to the notion that the game is poorly balanced.
Looking through Steam Reviews most of the negative reviews stem from either Balance, or the feeling that the game is pay to win due to the commander system.
(and OKW has nowhere near 60% in any gamemode anyway)
58% in 4v4 which happens to be the most popular game mode and is often ignored for the minority of players in 1v1. I am sure that is healthy for the overall health of the game.
Another aspect of balance that you fail to see is accessibility. Take Dota 2's hero pudge for example. He has to use a skill shot to land a hook which pulls enemy heroes to him. If he lands every hook then the hero is really good and borderline overpowered. If he doesn't then he is one of the most worthless heroes in the game. Essentially USF is COH2's version of Pudge. They are extremely unforgiving and lack accessibility that other factions have the luxury of having. Playing USF is like playing COH2 with Dark Souls settings turned on.
Another indicator of balance is the amount of people actually playing a particular faction. This is evident by the fact that USF is the least played faction in the game. Compared to both german factions which have the highest levels of accessibility in the game due to having every tool possible in their disposal. Essentially the people playing USF and are winning are some of the best players in the game currently. Especially since there is an endless sea of bad players to stomp due to Axis having more accessibility and thus being played by newer players often this is why you need to look at faction numbers as well to paint a picture.
This is why historically you have had significantly more people on Axis and Que times for a match were terrible over the history of the game.
If you want a better balanced game each faction needs to have a similar level of accessibility instead of the extremes that we have now. How is a new player supposed to feel the game is balanced when enemy infantry can just walk right up to a Vickers while MG-42 can instant suppress blobs with ease? These interactions create a negative opinion for newer players who simply just leave which is why the community for COH2 doesn't grow to the level that we all wished it did. I for one would love it if Company of Heroes was one of the top played games on Steam.
Since no one has complained about that unit in a long time, I'll take the step forward and go ahead.
I've been testing the JP4 a lot recently, and I find it either OP or at least very close to it. I am talking from a team game perspective (2v2/3v3), and seriously this thing is amazing.
The stats are good to great. Small target size, good armor, but most importantly: very good ROF.
If I had two complaints about the unit, I'd say it is its mobility. It feels a bit janky to use, but at least after vet3 this problem is solved as well. Penetration is a bit low, I don't necessarily recommend it vs Brits. Still, the pen is high enough to 100% penetrate every other stock unit apart from Churchill and Comet. Against Soviets and USF the JP4 works like a charm.
The vet is SO strong on it. +160 HP at vet 2, making it a 5-shot vehicle. Unless you really screw up, it practically does not die from this point onwards. And even if it does, your opponent has pushed so far that you'll at least get a trade from it. The accuracy bonus at vet3 will basically guarantee you a hit against all mediums and above as long as you stand still. The 60 range will also guarantee to shut down enemy TDs, against which the JP4 will almost guarantee a win in a shoot out.
vet4-5 usually come fairly late and are often not game deciding anymore, but the second vet level is easily reachable, and as I said you won't lose the JP4 from there on, so it is only a matter of time for the rest of the vet to kick in.
ROF is great, even at vet0 (5 seconds) and just gets better at vet4 (4 seconds).
The lack of mobility can often been counter acted by good scouting (I often play Pfusiliere with it) and 1-2 mines on the most obvious flanking paths. As for repairs, I usually play T2 (with my OST team mate donating a med bunker) to get the repairatrons, which also counter acts the increased repair time with 800 HP.
The only real weakness that I have not managed to overcome is the difficulty to really finish off enemy vehicles. That's a clear disadvantage compared to the Panther. But apart from this, you get so much out of this unit it is crazy.
Hannibal is someone who actually plays the game and is very unbiased. I would have to agree with him here 100%. The JP4 is a relic from OKW's past from the original faction design in which Veterancy on units were extremely strong. Without veterancy the JP4 feels like an overpriced 60 range stug and gives off the impression that it is lackluster but in the hands of someone who is good at managing SU-85s the JP4 is overpowered as hell especially once it gets vet. The problem is that many players don't take zoning into account especially when you factor in the cloaking ability and the raketens ability to also be invisible possibly supporting it making a push into enemy territory very dangerous which can't be said about the panther.
It is the logical thing to do and makes sense when balancing a game. It is one of many aspects of balance to look at. Dota 2, League of Legends and even Rainbow Six Siege all use numerical data as an indication of balance across all skills levels. These are all E-Sport titles which means balance is an utmost priority. COH 2 attempted to be an E-Sport but failed miserably because most of the player base feels the game is poorly balanced. Rightfully so when you and your team are responsible for creating non-stop game breaking issues such as SturmTiger, Fallshirmjaegers, JLI and a whole list of other things over the years. How do you expect new players to stick to the game when there is constant issues and they feel the game is essentially broken? Despite your well intentioned efforts, I stand by my opinion that the Balance Team has made the game worse over time since they started.
Dota2 and LOL are better balanced than COH2? LMAO, nice joke man. Have you watched TI? You think Elder Titan is fine with 60% winrate? You think Magnus is fine with over 60% winrate? And there are even bans to get the most broken things out of the window in theory. These games are not more popular cause they are better balanced, they are more popular cause they are just better designed games with better mechanics, better matchmaking, better settings, etc. End of story. And there is no way to balance a game fair for everyone and everything. There will always be underpowered and overpowered stuff. Games would be pretty dull otherwise.
Sure the balance team did some questionable stuff, but in the end of the day they made the game not worse than what we had when relic left. And balance doesnt matter for 95% of players anyway. Instead of crying that USF is dark souls, maybe you should start to improve yourself. I guarantee you that will improve your rating more than making USF better .
It is the logical thing to do and makes sense when balancing a game. It is one of many aspects of balance to look at.
it is logical, but you fix one thing and another may emerge OP. Balance team buffed Scotts, which was logical thing to do, since USF lacked good mobile indirect, yet this resulted in one of the cheesiest builds I've seen in coh2: zook Pathfinder spam, into Scott spam.
Balance team are working basically for free and still doing better job then Relic used to. Although I wish they were more eager with emergency patches. Full summer of broken Sturmtiger was way too much.
Hannibal is someone who actually plays the game and is very unbiased. I would have to agree with him here 100%. The JP4 is a relic from OKW's past from the original faction design in which Veterancy on units were extremely strong. Without veterancy the JP4 feels like an overpriced 60 range stug and gives off the impression that it is lackluster but in the hands of someone who is good at managing SU-85s the JP4 is overpowered as hell especially once it gets vet. The problem is that many players don't take zoning into account especially when you factor in the cloaking ability and the raketens ability to also be invisible possibly supporting it making a push into enemy territory very dangerous which can't be said about the panther.
Sander is someone who 'actually' plays the game too. And he does it at a higher level than you do. He even went on an unnoticed crusade playing USF with nothing but the Pershing doc.
He'd probably play more if he wasn't busy helping ungrateful turds.
Sander is someone who 'actually' plays the game too. And he does it at a higher level than you do. He even went on an unnoticed crusade playing USF with nothing but the Pershing doc.
He'd probably play more if he wasn't busy helping ungrateful turds.
On 3vs3 which is the least relevant game mode.
And as Kurobane says, Sander's is maybe a good player but USF remains completely utterly trash if you're not good at the game.
Back to the JP4, the unit sit on top of Allied ultimate TDs which is problematic because late game should be equal between heavy tanks from OKW vs TDs from allied factions.
Some say it is UP, some OP, some say it is slightly bad, some decent. What the hell.
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