JP4 performance

Jump back to quoted post3 Oct 2021, 12:08 PMHannibal

The JP4 then counters Allies' biggest strength: Their access to 60 range TDs to chip away Axis armor from afar. The JP4 counters all of them with ease. That's why it synergizes so well with the KT and Tiger.

Jump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 20:47 PMProtos Angelus

In 3v3 there is always a JP4 wall sooner or later on most maps. You won't play it in the tourney because a Panther is generally a better choice. Much more mobile and counters every tank, hard. JP4 is more difficult to use and a more defensive tank, used to solidify the position. In 1v1 there is no such thing as solidifying. In 2v2+ there most certainly is. In 3v3 it's most common.
With 60% penetration and a couple of seconds between shots, no tank wants to stand in the line of fire for too long. With a bit of luck on JP4 side, your tank goes bye-bye.
So yeah, it's OP in teamgames but not because of it's stats or whatever. JP4 should have lower armour IMHO since it has such low target size and becomes a 5-shot tank with veterancy. But the main strength of JP4 is in map design. Put 1-2 JP4s on a map like redball. Combine it with a stuka and a KT and you have an impenetrable fortress that will only ever be pushed back by 2 opponents combined. Such nonsense would not work on 1v1 maps and some 2v2

Jump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:55 PMSkysTheLimit

Ahh yes the su85s patented mobility. It's basically a formula 1 car turned assault gun

Jump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 19:00 PMVipper

I have not posted anything close to that sentence.

Jump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:55 PMSkysTheLimit

BS on a whole other level, it's truly something else

Jump back to quoted post5 Oct 2021, 13:49 PMdonofsandiego

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Jump back to quoted post6 Oct 2021, 18:41 PMReverb

It's much easier to react to dives in the SU85 than it is the JPIV. Both are slugs but the JPIV is a slug on heroin in reaction ability.

Mobility matters quite a lot here, not saying ROF isn't important, but can the JPIV have at least one significant stat that's superior to allied TDs?

JPIV is a great unit but it's not a hard counter to allied TDs, it's up to the superior player in these types of engagements.
It might have a leg up in certain situations (lanes) but it also has a leg down in others.
It's mediocre against Comets, Churchills, IS2, ISU, Pershing. Comets get spammed as much as Panthers.

Jump back to quoted post6 Oct 2021, 18:41 PMReverb

It's much easier to react to dives in the SU85 than it is the JPIV. Both are slugs but the JPIV is a slug on heroin in reaction ability.

Mobility matters quite a lot here, not saying ROF isn't important, but can the JPIV have at least one significant stat that's superior to allied TDs?

JPIV is a great unit but it's not a hard counter to allied TDs, it's up to the superior player in these types of engagements.
It might have a leg up in certain situations (lanes) but it also has a leg down in others.
It's mediocre against Comets, Churchills, IS2, ISU, Pershing. Comets get spammed as much as Panthers.

Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 11:51 AMAlphrum

A lot of comments here saying jp4 shuts down allied TD's, that's just simply not true, they are both in range and can fight each other, yes in a vaccum jp4 may have the advantage but this is not 1 unit vs 1 unit and even it was, Firefily can have tupils to wreck the jp4, jackson can outflank it easily and su85 can spot it first. AN elephant or jagdtiger shuts down Allied TD's.

Ppl as usual over exaggerating unit performance

Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 12:34 PMProtos Angelus

Lol, jackson can outflank it XD.

You've just proven your level of game sense. I'd excuse myself of commenting further if I were you.
Imagine that. Jackson outflanking a JP4. Talking about units in a vacuum xD
Holy moly, that's some rank 9999 talking right there or just the usual wehraboo stuff

Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 11:51 AMAlphrum

A lot of comments here saying jp4 shuts down allied TD's, that's just simply not true, they are both in range and can fight each other, yes in a vaccum jp4 may have the advantage but this is not 1 unit vs 1 unit and even it was, Firefily can have tupils to wreck the jp4, jackson can outflank it easily and su85 can spot it first. AN elephant or jagdtiger shuts down Allied TD's.

Ppl as usual over exaggerating unit performance

Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 15:16 PMHannibal

The SU85 will usually still lose even despite having the first shot (which is by far also not a guarantee).
Firefly can fight back with Tulips, those are very hard to aim at 50-60 range and apart from Tulips it will heavily lose.
Jackson? Not too much. It can just avoid the JP4. Best it could do is to spot an angle, take a pot shot and back off before the JP4 has rotated, but that is unreliable at best and takes a huge micro effort. Real flanking is not a realistic option. The main Jackson's main strength is its 60 range, you're not diving this vehicle. If you want to flank and dive, a Sherman is the better option.

In most scenarios, Allied TDs will trade way worse than the JP4, especially of both of them gather veterancy over time.

Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 17:34 PMAlphrum

same of the jp4, it could very well miss on long range , however i am not disagreeing with your post, i was just responding to the people saying jp4 SHUTS DOWN allied TD play which is just not true.

Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 19:07 PMHannibal

I did not mean actually hitting a target, but rather just having the first shot. According to my calcs (assuming SU85 hits about 2/3 of its scatter shots which is fairly in line from what I tested against a medium tank and JP4 hits 50% of its scatter shots due to larger scatter angle), JP4 wins fairly easily in direct combat. The SU85 can equal out if the JP4 has to rotate for about 2 seconds (SU85 attacks at 40° angle) before being able to shoot. Granted, I the reduced precision for the first shot is not factored in, but still.

Once the JP4 hits vet2 and gets extra health, SU85 can't really win anymore, even at vet3. Regarding pure DPS, the SU85 is the best of the Allied destroyers. Which means that without any support (or at the very least lucky long range Tulips from the Firefly), Jackson and Firefly will likely lose too.
If you regularly have to push into a JP4, which many maps force you to, the best you can realistically hope for as an Allied player is to trade somewhat equally with the JP4 and force a retreat. In 80% of the other scenarios, you'll draw the short end of the stick.

To make it short:
It depends on what you understand as "shut down". Complete domination with high chance of regularly losing your TD? No, that's not the case. But severly hampering its performance? For sure.
A P4 also does not utterly dominate a T34. But whenever those two meet, the T34 should not pick the fight unless there are other units to support it. Obviously this comparison is a bit off, since those mediums have a cost difference which in case of the JP4 either not the case or slightly even in favor of the JP4.

Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 17:34 PMAlphrum

i was just responding to the people saying jp4 SHUTS DOWN allied TD play which is just not true.

Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 19:27 PMAlphrum

i agree with your assessment. So whats wrong? should JP4 be losing to allied TD's? isn't jp4 beating and to effectively fighting back and counter allied TD's exactly what this unit should be capable of? correct me if wrong, jp4 exists to counter medium armoured tanks and below, hence why it does not have the pen of other 60 range TD's but does have better armour and health which allows it to counter them better. Allied TD's already effectively counter every single axis non doc vehicle expect for the jp4. as far as i can see, this unit is performing as intended.

Jump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 19:19 PMSkysTheLimit

*snip*

Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 22:11 PMHannibal

As I wrote in my opening post, I am kind of divided if I personally consider the JP4 already OP or "just" very good. That's why I wanted to start this discussion.
From how I read your post, you're arguing that Allied TDs are already good against everything except for the JP4. If they performed well against the JP4, they'd lack a real weakness, which would be bad for the game.
I fully agree.

And that's exactly the issue that I have with the JP4. It counters all Allied non-doc vehicles with the exception of the Comet and maybe, maybe the Churchill (against which it still does "okay"). Including - if not to say, especially - all Allied TDs. One single unit in one single faction is all that the JP4 is bad against. USF and Soviets are kind of out of options. Also, the JP4 does not win against TDs because of its armor (it has <4,5% frontal bounce chance), but because of its ROF and at vet2 also health.

While Allied TDs are at least rather fragile (SU85 and Jackson) or clunky and slow firing (Firefly), giving even mediums the chance to just bum rush a damaged TD and win. That's not the case with the JP4. If you don't find the rear armor, good luck with ~55% pen chance with your medium tank all while having lower ROF than the JP4. If you're Axis and dive an Allied TD, getting to the rear is beneficial, but you can still manage if not. As Allies against the JP4, it is actually required, because otherwise you cannot win.

In my eyes, the only things holding the JP4 back are slight mobility issues until it vets up and most of all its timing. In the current meta and with OKW often losing the infantry advantage around the 15 min mark, your first vehicle should be a medium, not a TD. For some reasons (I assume reliability and less micro but not sure) people often get the Panther afterwards.

As Sanders said, builds with heavies are hard to beat. I personally play them with grand offensive. Pfusies keep you safe from flanking mediums, and you have the option for the Tiger. I found it sometimes difficult to make it to the Tiger because of some holes in the AI line up that are caused by the JP4, but they can be manageable and once you got the Tiger, you're usually good to go for the end game.