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USA scotts (M8A1)

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Hannibal
1 Feb 2022, 12:48 PM
#341
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 11:22 AMProtos Angelus
OST hard in 1v1? What drugs are you on? You have a couple of different builds, all work wonders. Generally you play around the MG42, and given the massive arc, you won't spend a lot of time repositioning it. OKW is "harder" to play in 1v1 because you have to make a choice in teching, but other than that, they are completely fine. Never seen an OKW player that struggled against any allied faction in 1v1. They dominate USF the most, soviets the least.

The game overall is decently balanced considering you have to have a "one fits all" solution across all modes.

I assume he meant the general tendency of Axis being worse in 1v1 and better in 4v4 than Allies, which is also backed up by the stats we have.

https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=range&statsSource=top200&type=1v1&race=wermacht&fromTimeStamp=1630454400&toTimeStamp=1643673600

Now it depends what we understand when saying "hard to play": Balance wise weak or just harder to get a grasp on. But in the end when looking at top players, both will translate into a diminished win rate. USF seems to play out similarly vs both Axis factions regarding the chance to win. OKW seems a bit weaker vs Soviets and stronger vs Brits. But in the end, it all closely mirrors what we see in the general statistic: Axis in 1v1 have slightly below 50% win rate. There do not seem to be larger differences which Axis faction you play against. The main difference basically comes down to the question if you play Brits or not. If yes, your win chance is about 48%, if not, it is 52%.
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GachiGasm
1 Feb 2022, 12:53 PM
#342
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 05:11 AMKlement Pikhtura
If you take out from the roster/nerf to the ground Airborne, the winrate across all teamgames will drop for USF. Pretty sure about that.

No wonder, because almost every single USF player abuse it. I wont even comment on the fact if USF actually need it or not in oder to win, but people should really stop pretending like USF is the worst faction on life support, one particullar cheese strategy is the only thing making them playble. Even stats (which for some reason conveniently arent poping out every day, like they used to, in context of showing how trash allies are) shows that.

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2022, 20:10 PMEsxile
Aaah the ultimate argument, players are suckers that's why they keep losing with USF, but not with Ostheer, soviet or OKW.

Because Ostheer\Soviets\OKW are more forgiving when it comes to random teamgames?

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 11:22 AMProtos Angelus

OST hard in 1v1? What drugs are you on? You have a couple of different builds, all work wonders. Generally you play around the MG42, and given the massive arc, you won't spend a lot of time repositioning it. OKW is "harder" to play in 1v1 because you have to make a choice in teching, but other than that, they are completely fine. Never seen an OKW player that struggled against any allied faction in 1v1. They dominate USF the most, soviets the least.

Dude you dont even play 1v1 semi-competitively. And I didnt say "HARD", I said HARDER. I'm not speaking about tournament games, nor do I speak about 10000+ rank games. I speak about middle groud player base.
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Protos Angelus
1 Feb 2022, 13:06 PM
#343
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 12:53 PMGachiGasm

No wonder, because almost every single USF player abuse it. I wont even comment on the fact if USF actually need it or not in oder to win, but people should really stop pretending like USF is the worst faction on life support, one particullar cheese strategy is the only thing making them playble. Even stats (which for some reason conveniently arent poping out every day, like they used to, in context of showing how trash allies are) shows that.



"but people should really stop pretending like USF is the worst faction on life support"

followed by

"one particullar cheese strategy is the only thing making them playble"

So they are on life support? On life support, only one thing is making you alive, that's the life support machine. USF only has paths/scott combo making them playable. I'd say that's as closest to "life support" as you can get.

Having said that, I seldom play paths/scott as it's unwise in 3v3s. You have no mines and you'll get swarmed by panthers sooner or later. And I don't play 1v1s but I do know that axis are not hard nor harder to play than allies. I consider soviets and OST to be the "easiest" factions to play in 1v1, but USF/UKF/OKW are not harder, just different, in a sense that they lack something either early, or later on.
I don't even consider the scott/paths to be that strong, in any game mode. People just don't want to get out of the usual build orders and playstyle to counter it.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
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Vipper
1 Feb 2022, 14:32 PM
#344
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 13:06 PMProtos Angelus



"but people should really stop pretending like USF is the worst faction on life support"

followed by

"one particullar cheese strategy is the only thing making them playble"

So they are on life support? On life support, only one thing is making you alive, that's the life support machine. USF only has paths/scott combo making them playable. I'd say that's as closest to "life support" as you can get.

Having said that, I seldom play paths/scott as it's unwise in 3v3s. You have no mines and you'll get swarmed by panthers sooner or later. And I don't play 1v1s but I do know that axis are not hard nor harder to play than allies. I consider soviets and OST to be the "easiest" factions to play in 1v1, but USF/UKF/OKW are not harder, just different, in a sense that they lack something either early, or later on.
I don't even consider the scott/paths to be that strong, in any game mode. People just don't want to get out of the usual build orders and playstyle to counter it.

Lets put the "USF have no mines" myth to rest.

USF have access to:
Stock
RE M7 light tank mine
M20 M6 Anti-Tank Mine

Dotrincal
Field defenses 3 commanders
Assault engineer 1 commander
Support Paras 1 commanders

And airborne comes with loiter that would make diving vs Scots with panthers a bad idea.

:)
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GachiGasm
1 Feb 2022, 14:34 PM
#345
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 13:06 PMProtos Angelus

"but people should really stop pretending like USF is the worst faction on life support"
followed by
"one particullar cheese strategy is the only thing making them playble"

I missed "and". What I meant is, some people in this thread and in general tend to defend airborn\scotts cheesing as the only one viable strategy without which USF has no chance of winning what so ever.

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 13:06 PMProtos Angelus
And I don't play 1v1s but I do know that axis are not hard nor harder to play than allies. I consider soviets and OST to be the "easiest" factions to play in 1v1, but USF/UKF/OKW are not harder, just different, in a sense that they lack something either early, or later on.

Stats says otherwise, even common logic says otherwise due to how factions are designed. But what ever.

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 13:06 PMProtos Angelus
Having said that, I seldom play paths/scott as it's unwise in 3v3s. You have no mines and you'll get swarmed by panthers sooner or later.

Whole idea of this meta is that you are able to maintain such pressure from the beggining, that Axis just wont survive untill panthers. If there are panters running around, then USF player failed to maintain snowballing. Pathfinder/scott meta wont win you 50+ mins games, but it has the capacity of pretty much ending the game in less then 20 mins and maintain insane pressure just untill super late game. There are no legions of panthers by that time.

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 13:06 PMProtos Angelus
I don't even consider the scott/paths to be that strong, in any game mode. People just don't want to get out of the usual build orders and playstyle to counter it.

Sure thing. Except it all comes to outplaying USF and teammates in early game, because the only real counter is to drag the game as long as possible in order to get Elephant\JT, because funnly enouth the most generic and usual build order is the only effective one.
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Vipper
1 Feb 2022, 14:34 PM
#346
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 12:48 PMHannibal

The game overall is decently balanced considering you have to have a "one fits all" solution across all modes.
....

I am under impression that 4vs4 stat might not be very reliable since the number of dropped players before minute 5 is probably very high.
:)
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Esxile
1 Feb 2022, 14:37 PM
#347
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 12:53 PMGachiGasm


Because Ostheer\Soviets\OKW are more forgiving when it comes to random teamgames?




So players become instantly trash when they select USF because the faction isn't forgiving. :banana:
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GachiGasm
1 Feb 2022, 14:47 PM
#348
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 14:37 PMEsxile

So players become instantly trash when they select USF because the faction isn't forgiving. :banana:


Well when I am against double OKW on either red\white ball express paired with USF as soviet, and USF dont have brain capacity to understand that I need ambu to reinforce my maxim spam, they are trash in my book.

If soviet\Ost and OKW (to a lesser extend) arent giving the single shit about teammates, they are still can be somewhat usefull by just being somewhere near. If USF\UKF are playing in this manner, you might aswell insta drop the game. I dont really understand what you dont like about what I'm saying. This is pretty much the sole reason, why random Allies are harder to play in 3v3\4v4, then random axis.
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Hannibal
1 Feb 2022, 16:06 PM
#349
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 14:34 PMVipper

I am under impression that 4vs4 stat might not be very reliable since the number of dropped players before minute 5 is probably very high.

It is probably less reliable, but the question is by how much.
Games that last less than 5 minutes goes up from 4,5% to 9,5%. Games shorter than 10 minutes go from 12,6 to 16,4.

The point to prove would be though that it happens to one side more often than the other one, which I don't really see why it should be the case, unless players from far away regions with smaller player count have heavy bias towards one faction. But then again the player count is low, and so will be the influence.
Anyway, we can only hypothesize. There seems to be a trend though that Axis become stronger the larger the mode is, even despite the higher drop rates in 4v4 the data might be credible (with a grain of salt)
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Vipper
1 Feb 2022, 16:20 PM
#350
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 16:06 PMHannibal

It is probably less reliable, but the question is by how much.
Games that last less than 5 minutes goes up from 4,5% to 9,5%. Games shorter than 10 minutes go from 12,6 to 16,4.

The point to prove would be though that it happens to one side more often than the other one, which I don't really see why it should be the case, unless players from far away regions with smaller player count have heavy bias towards one faction. But then again the player count is low, and so will be the influence.
Anyway, we can only hypothesize. There seems to be a trend though that Axis become stronger the larger the mode is, even despite the higher drop rates in 4v4 the data might be credible (with a grain of salt)


One thing that seems strange is the difference between 3vs3 games and 4vs4 in win rates. The modes are not that different nor the map pool.

It is possible that also that users county of origin, their connection and hardware might be different from 3vs3 to 4vs4 and that might somehow effect win rates.
:)
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Hannibal
1 Feb 2022, 16:38 PM
#351
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 16:20 PMVipper
One thing that seems strange is the difference between 3vs3 games and 4vs4 in win rates. The modes are not that different nor the map pool.

It is possible that also that users county of origin, their connection and hardware might be different from 3vs3 to 4vs4 and that might somehow effect win rates.

We can do a lot of speculations for all modes, however we also don't have many hints that they are true or how exactly they should favor one side more than the other.

In the end we also have a lot of gameplay reasons that could explain the differences without needing to speculate as much. But this would lead too far from this topic about Scotts, so I'd rather leave it at that.
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Vipper
1 Feb 2022, 17:02 PM
#352
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jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2022, 16:38 PMHannibal

We can do a lot of speculations for all modes, however we also don't have many hints that they are true or how exactly they should favor one side more than the other.

In the end we also have a lot of gameplay reasons that could explain the differences without needing to speculate as much. But this would lead too far from this topic about Scotts, so I'd rather leave it at that.

Main point here is that USF seem to have low win rate only in 4vs4 ( OKW/Wer seem only to have high win rate in the same mode) and still higher than the other allied factions.

USF have the one of highest allied win rate in 3vs3.

In sort stat do not seem to support that USF is "trash" claim.
:)
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Klement Pikhtura
5 Feb 2022, 22:36 PM
#353
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Regardless if USF is underperforming in teamgames or not, Scotts should really use a nerf, but not necessary in dps.

Imo proposed by many, including Duffman, self smoke removal is a must. On top of it, maybe 10..15% accel nerf would be good as well.
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Katukov
5 Feb 2022, 23:53 PM
#354
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2022, 22:36 PMKlement Pikhtura
Regardless if USF is underperforming in teamgames or not, Scotts should really use a nerf, but not necessary in dps.

Imo proposed by many, including Duffman, self smoke removal is a must. On top of it, maybe 10..15% accel nerf would be good as well.


why should scotts be nerfed? i don't really think they're problematic
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Esxile
6 Feb 2022, 09:31 AM
#355
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2022, 23:53 PMKatukov


why should scotts be nerfed? i don't really think they're problematic
Cuz you can't dive them with your panther, kill them and then escape with your blitz and smoke.
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MassaDerek
6 Feb 2022, 09:34 AM
#356
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jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2022, 22:36 PMKlement Pikhtura
Regardless if USF is underperforming in teamgames or not, Scotts should really use a nerf, but not necessary in dps.

Imo proposed by many, including Duffman, self smoke removal is a must. On top of it, maybe 10..15% accel nerf would be good as well.


Scotts have to operate closer to the frontline compared to basically any other vehicular arty, therefore exposing themselves to danger more.+They only work really well against a static playstyle(OST with 2xMG42,2xPAK40, mortar) and it's always these people that complain about the scott.

If the self-smoke ability is to be removed from as a insignificant in the grand scale of thing unit like the Scott, then self-smoke should be removed from all vehicles that can use them, P4s, 222s, Panthers and Tigers shouldn't have a free get out of jail card considering how much impact they can have on the game.
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Klement Pikhtura
6 Feb 2022, 10:48 AM
#357
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2022, 09:34 AMMassaDerek


Scotts have to operate closer to the frontline compared to basically any other vehicular arty, therefore exposing themselves to danger more.+They only work really well against a static playstyle(OST with 2xMG42,2xPAK40, mortar) and it's always these people that complain about the scott.

If the self-smoke ability is to be removed from as a insignificant in the grand scale of thing unit like the Scott, then self-smoke should be removed from all vehicles that can use them, P4s, 222s, Panthers and Tigers shouldn't have a free get out of jail card considering how much impact they can have on the game.

That's because in order to kill it, you often have to chase the scott back to base on most maps.
Lets take a look, it dies from 3 shots, it is very fast and has rather small target size. If you consider the fact that chasing means shooting on the move in COH2, the amount of shots to kill a Scott can easily go up to 5. You add smoke and you have a cancer recipe, because good luck punishing that. Honestly, you need to be a have a severe acute case of "brain fart" to lose a Scott
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Esxile
6 Feb 2022, 10:53 AM
#358
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2022, 10:48 AMKlement Pikhtura

That's because in order to kill it, you often have to chase the scott back to base on most maps.
Lets take a look, it dies from 3 shots, it is very fast and has rather small target size. If you consider the fact that chasing means shooting on the move in COH2, the amount of shots to kill a Scott can easily go up to 5. You add smoke and you have a cancer recipe, because good luck punishing that. Honestly, you need to be a have a severe acute case of "brain fart" to lose a Scott


Same thing with a Puma and any unit that get vet1 blitz or Panzer tactician
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MassaDerek
6 Feb 2022, 10:56 AM
#359
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Posts: 197

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2022, 10:48 AMKlement Pikhtura

That's because in order to kill it, you often have to chase the scott back to base on most maps.
Lets take a look, it dies from 3 shots, it is very fast and has rather small target size. If you consider the fact that chasing means shooting on the move in COH2, the amount of shots to kill a Scott can easily go up to 5. You add smoke and you have a cancer recipe, because good luck punishing that. Honestly, you need to be a have a severe acute case of "brain fart" to lose a Scott



Then you can also say the same with the Tiger,P4, 222 and Panther.

P4 at VET2 has 240armor, 640 HP, blitz and you're going to probably miss atleast once as you chase it, so let's say 8 shots.

The 222 with or without spotting scopes can see you coming a mile away once it has vet, sure it's a 2 shot kill, but is also very fast and mobile since the second you get it, and also gets smoke to make it cancerous to fight it.

Tiger has 1k+ HP, 300armor, blitz with vet and smoke, good luck.

Panther is the fastest medium in the game with blitz, 960HP, 260armor and also smoke.

I'm not in favour of nerfing AYNTHING the allies have at this point, I don't know why you are.All of these 4 units I just mentioned have a MUCH larger impact on the game than a single or even two scotts.If we are to nerf another USF unit(make the WEAKEST faction in the game even weaker) then an eye for a eye should be established because it shouldn't be commonplace for Axis to get all the good stuff whilst the allies are left in the dust.
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Mr Carmine
6 Feb 2022, 11:19 AM
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I tend to agree that if the scott is cancarous to fight cuz of smoke and mobility and being unable to kill it in a single dive mostly means smoke has to be removed.
Then all smoke from 222 puma even flaktrack p4 up to panthers tigers and brumbar etc should be removed/nerfed. As these are as mobile or far more durable and impactfull. The amount of times all off them escape death because of it is very high. Yet its a no no when the scott can do it, wich mostly counters static play as it should.
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