SU-76 buff?

More than two buffs have never worked on anything (see heavies, 7 man scripts, jli), although I agree that the SU76 needs help.

Reduce target size on SU76, improve turn rate and vet3 brings the damage to 160. Reduce ROF by 0.3s.
Compared to Stug, a somewhat comparable unit, it would have less survivability, more agility, less penetration (also on average vs better armour), cost a bit less, have slightly lower ROF but you get a barrage, which is a great tool generally.
You could also improve the AOE of the barrage at the cost of cooldown, scatter or whatnot, I'm not well versed in those stats. But that would be optional.

If you keep it alive, a dual SU76 would eat everything but the heaviest tanks, in one bite. Most useful on open maps. And the downside would be that if you do go for dual SU76, well you get great AT with decent AI but you skimp out on early T34-76 to close the game and/or eat the popcap for a SU85/katyusha

Also considering that the SU-76 is basically the Soviet version of the STUG, I find it funny how the Balance team nerfed the SU-76 because it could penetrate heavy tanks (OMG MY POOR TIGER) meanwhile no such change was made for the STUG which when also spammed like the SU-76 could demolish Allied Heavy Tanks (shocker). Which is basically like saying Soviet made 5 ZIS AT Guns, lets make a Tiger and send it in and expect it to not get destroyed. Then you see the ZIS for being effective at its role it ends up getting nerfed and can no longer penetrate anything.

Also considering that the SU-76 is basically the Soviet version of the STUG, I find it funny how the Balance team nerfed the SU-76 because it could penetrate heavy tanks (OMG MY POOR TIGER) meanwhile no such change was made for the STUG which when also spammed like the SU-76 could demolish Allied Heavy Tanks (shocker). Which is basically like saying Soviet made 5 ZIS AT Guns, lets make a Tiger and send it in and expect it to not get destroyed. Then you see the ZIS for being effective at its role it ends up getting nerfed and can no longer penetrate anything.

Thr SU76 comes much earlier. They also are in completely different factions. With the SU85 being mechanically the same unit 60 range casemate), it only makes sense to balance the SU76 towards LVs and mediums.
OST T3 is much too late to justify any balancing towards LVs, the StuG and the Panther are functionally so different that they force different playstyles. The Panther is not an upgraded StuG, and OST having two AT options for the late game makes for much more interesting gameplay than Soviets.

Thr SU76 comes much earlier. They also are in completely different factions. With the SU85 being mechanically the same unit 60 range casemate), it only makes sense to balance the SU76 towards LVs and mediums.
OST T3 is much too late to justify any balancing towards LVs, the StuG and the Panther are functionally so different that they force different playstyles. The Panther is not an upgraded StuG, and OST having two AT options for the late game makes for much more interesting gameplay than Soviets.

The balance team acting real smart by making the su-76 a LV counter, but then they force it to have unreliable on the move accuracy and low damage per shot...on TOP of being a casemate...

the stug doesn't have unique playstyle, it is a cheap TD that can penetrate every single allied medium in the game, with a rapid firing rate and an ability that stuns tanks. panthers basically are panthers, most people lose them due to their own failure

I am all for reworking the SU-76 into being a TD with the option to do a kv-2 siege for artillery support, or even an ability that gives it better damage and pen for a limited time (or straight up fuel upgrade that upgrades at t4, that turns it into a zis on wheels). But wait, SOV cant spam the same unit and be strong, that would be unfair! why should those pesky commies be allowed to do what we wehr/okw players do?

Also considering that the SU-76 is basically the Soviet version of the STUG, I find it funny how the Balance team nerfed the SU-76 because it could penetrate heavy tanks (OMG MY POOR TIGER) meanwhile no such change was made for the STUG which when also spammed like the SU-76 could demolish Allied Heavy Tanks (shocker). Which is basically like saying Soviet made 5 ZIS AT Guns, lets make a Tiger and send it in and expect it to not get destroyed. Then you see the ZIS for being effective at its role it ends up getting nerfed and can no longer penetrate anything.

Like Hannibal said, it's not the same unit. It's a different unit in a different faction. It's sort of similar to the role of the Stug, but that's it. You should never directly compare units in different factions because different units stand behind them.
SU76 can still penetrate heavy tanks. The chance to penetrate is not really high, about 50% for the likes of KT/T. That, however, is more than enough if one gets two SU76s and keeps them alive. Their ROF basically says "Ok, I have lower penetration, but I shoot so often that I sh** on your statistical analysis".
Same as how SMGs are good vs clown cars and the likes. They have lower dmg compared to semi-auto, lower penetration, but much higher ROF.

Point is, SU76 should not have the penetration, nor the survivability (Eg. vetted up stug can bounce quite a few shots, not to mention the low size for the misses) of Stug.

Like Hannibal said, it's not the same unit. It's a different unit in a different faction. It's sort of similar to the role of the Stug, but that's it. You should never directly compare units in different factions because different units stand behind them.
SU76 can still penetrate heavy tanks. The chance to penetrate is not really high, about 50% for the likes of KT/T. That, however, is more than enough if one gets two SU76s and keeps them alive. Their ROF basically says "Ok, I have lower penetration, but I shoot so often that I sh** on your statistical analysis".
Same as how SMGs are good vs clown cars and the likes. They have lower dmg compared to semi-auto, lower penetration, but much higher ROF.

Point is, SU76 should not have the penetration, nor the survivability (Eg. vetted up stug can bounce quite a few shots, not to mention the low size for the misses) of Stug.

Imo soviets t3 is about equel ost t2.5. Sov t3 is a steping stone tier. Its only function right now is unlocking t4 and the t70. For ost t3 and t4 are viable end game tiers in 1v1. For soviets only t4 is.
While the stug/jagdpz 4 and panther are both good for ost and okw, for sov the su76 isent and the su85 is.

The su76 just is to fragile clumsy and lacks scaling.
As for the rof advantidge, the stug gets the same rof and better speed with vet. While it already beats the su76 in everything but range.

If the su76 should remain at lower pen and damage and have a low survivability. Its should offer utility. At this point it doesnt have enough or the right kind for any1 to pick it over a t70 or t4.

Su-76 traded penetration for accuracy and it was overall a good change especially with changes to medium tanks target size.

It also got a number of buff since then.

The balance team acting real smart by making the su-76 a LV counter, but then they force it to have unreliable on the move accuracy and low damage per shot...on TOP of being a casemate...

the stug doesn't have unique playstyle, it is a cheap TD that can penetrate every single allied medium in the game, with a rapid firing rate and an ability that stuns tanks. panthers basically are panthers, most people lose them due to their own failure

I am all for reworking the SU-76 into being a TD with the option to do a kv-2 siege for artillery support, or even an ability that gives it better damage and pen for a limited time (or straight up fuel upgrade that upgrades at t4, that turns it into a zis on wheels). But wait, SOV cant spam the same unit and be strong, that would be unfair! why should those pesky commies be allowed to do what we wehr/okw players do?

The SU76's AT performance is actually fairly decent for its timing. The Puma might have a turret, but it actually has lower accuracy, even on the move despite being a much more mobile unit.

In the second paragraph, I don't understand where the disagreement is. You just described why StuG and Panther have a different playstyle: one is cheap, static, with high ROF but fragile, the other one is expensive, mobile, with low ROF but durable. You will use them differently because they work differently. Unlike both SUs, because they are functionally the same unit.

The SU76 is mostly a victim of its own faction. It's AT is not needed at the time it comes out, buffing the AT means it will become too similar to the SU85 (which basically is a ZiS on wheels already). At the same time Soviets already have two AI vehicles in T3. Without changing the infantry pacing, I'd probably still prefer StuG E like unit and completely remove the AT vehicle of T3. That would be at least unique to Soviets, whereas another AT upgrade makes it pretty much an SU85 if the upgrade is supposed to be useful.

In the second paragraph, I don't understand where the disagreement is. You just described why StuG and Panther have a different playstyle: one is cheap, static, with high ROF but fragile, the other one is expensive, mobile, with low ROF but durable. You will use them differently because they work differently. Unlike both SUs, because they are functionally the same unit.

yeah, they have unique playstyles, but panther spam is more prevalent and is stronger if you focus on it


I'm going away from the topic, but its not really fun to face a man who makes three panthers, at least until they inevitably smash these panthers into an attack or dive and they screw it up

SU76 vs puma is an interesting comparison - I'd choose the puma every time.

Su76 is more akin to the stug G, but the stug would win most of the time 1v1.

I can imagine Su-76 spam dying horribly to a few mines and AT guns. Now that the barrage has a cost, that itself isn't spammable either. In short, it is currently not a spammable unit.

I like the unit and think it's useful in its current iteration, and I also think that increasing its AT damage would NOT make it OP.

SU76 vs puma is an interesting comparison - I'd choose the puma every time.

Su76 is more akin to the stug G, but the stug would win most of the time 1v1.

I can imagine Su-76 spam dying horribly to a few mines and AT guns. Now that the barrage has a cost, that itself isn't spammable either. In short, it is currently not a spammable unit.

I like the unit and think it's useful in its current iteration, and I also think that increasing its AT damage would NOT make it OP.

it has increasd AT on vet already.

unless we drop its range from 60 to 50 i guess?

the rof between su76 and stug is very close and almost similar..

it has increasd AT on vet already.

unless we drop its range from 60 to 50 i guess?

Nah, no compromises are required in this case. Just a straight AT damage buff wouldn't be OP.

The SU76 is mostly a victim of its own faction. It's AT is not needed at the time it comes out, buffing the AT means it will become too similar to the SU85 (which basically is a ZiS on wheels already). At the same time Soviets already have two AI vehicles in T3. Without changing the infantry pacing, I'd probably still prefer StuG E like unit and completely remove the AT vehicle of T3. That would be at least unique to Soviets, whereas another AT upgrade makes it pretty much an SU85 if the upgrade is supposed to be useful.

I kinda see where you're coming from, which allows me to disagree. Increasing su76 AT damage doesn't make it too similar to an su85. That logic is like saying that the stug is similar to a JP. Just because SU76 and SU85 are in the same faction, doesn't mean that they're too similar, or will be too similar if their performance is tweaked. They are distinct, and at the same time, the Su76 is currently a bit weak at AT.

If the Su76 is meant to be a flanking unit, but is casemate, then it should perform like one (agility, speed etc). If its meant to remain static mainly and fire into the enemy's front armour, then it needs better damage to be relevant.

edit: for example, I think even a luchs could rush a su76, get behind it and take it out. I can see a 222 doing the same. That makes it a weak AT unit.

i am also believer of the timing

most 1v1 2v2 will get the t70 earlier and that pushes back su76 for aggressive map control.

you can go for fast su76 but there are no axis tanks for it at that timings.

therefore su76 is fine as a fall back, just like stug. su76 got many buffs in recent, more so than stug. seems a good spot without stacking the strong soviet composition

i am also believer of the timing

most 1v1 2v2 will get the t70 earlier and that pushes back su76 for aggressive map control.

you can go for fast su76 but there are no axis tanks for it at that timings.

therefore su76 is fine as a fall back, just like stug. su76 got many buffs in recent, more so than stug. seems a good spot without stacking the strong soviet composition

I agree with most of this; the t70 is a crutch for the faction and su76 doesn't get a chance.

However I don't think su76 is fine, even as a fall back, because the zis is always a better choice if you went t70.

In my mind, I want the su76 to be good when:
1. I want to supplement my zis gun with a flanking AT unit
2. I've gone heavy into incendiary and barrage tactics and want more of that
3. I want a long range, mobile AT that can stay in the back lines

(1) is gonna happen the most often, (2) will be rare, and (3) is a desperation move because Zis and Su85 are better.

So maybe I want it to be a better flanking unit. It has a hard time with this currently:
1. it has low health
2. It can't reverse out of trouble quickly enough
3. it turns slowly

Of course, a simple AT damage buff would solve a lot of problems without going down this particular rabbit hole.

su76 is more mobile than stug and p4 though. it could get a cheaper fuel cost, but buffing anymore performance will break things in 2v2.

I kinda see where you're coming from, which allows me to disagree. Increasing su76 AT damage doesn't make it too similar to an su85. That logic is like saying that the stug is similar to a JP. Just because SU76 and SU85 are in the same faction, doesn't mean that they're too similar, or will be too similar if their performance is tweaked. They are distinct, and at the same time, the Su76 is currently a bit weak at AT.

I can't fully follow you on this one. Both vehicles being in the same faction is a huge difference. Unit overlap has been an issue for ages. I don't want to stroll too far off topic, but we could/can still see it with USF Sherman variants that often do similar things. For two functionally similar units, there must be a decent performance gap to justify having both (like the T34 variants). Even an upgrade on the StuG would keep it distinct from the Panther. If the JP4 were in the same faction, we'd create more overlap though. And this is what in my opinion would happen to the SU76/SU85.

If the Su76 is meant to be a flanking unit, but is casemate, then it should perform like one (agility, speed etc). If its meant to remain static mainly and fire into the enemy's front armour, then it needs better damage to be relevant.

edit: for example, I think even a luchs could rush a su76, get behind it and take it out. I can see a 222 doing the same. That makes it a weak AT unit.

I agree that the current SU76 is kind of bad, but as I said not because of its stats.

This is my way of thinking about the SU76's AT performance:
Compared to other LVs at the time as well as the units it is supposed to counter (LVs and OST T3), the stats are alright. There might be some tweaking here and there, but overall it is doing okay. Buffing the SU76, which I'd term an overall decently balanced unit regarding cost and performance, could therefore be dangerous. Another reason that could justify a buff are special circumstances within the faction. But do Soviets have these special circumstances? Do they really lack means to deal with (Ostheer) mediums? They have the SU85 that does that just fine. T2 builds have the ZiS, T1 builds a back tech or to some extend at least PTRS. Soviets do not have an issue with mediums, mostly because the ZiS and the SU85 do just fine. Buffing the SU76 against mediums will overlap with the SU85. So unless the SU85 gets a new place, a buff to the SU76 is probably a bad idea. With CoH3 (and even AoE4) on the horizon, Relic will surely cease support for CoH2 soon, and reworking both TDs is risky and might need another 2 patches.

Which type of buff would you suggest for the SU76 then?
- Mobility? Will set it apart from the SU85 for sure. Overall I'd assume it will be hard to do because the SU76 is a casemate. I assume this will also scale very differently depending on the mode, but that's a general issue with casemates.
- Damage to I assume 160? This will make it a supreme choice over the SU85 for mediums. The only way I could see this happening is an unlock for the SU76 at T4 which also costs fuel. However, this increases overlap of both units.
- Penetration? Helps mostly against OKW. Again increases overlap to the SU85.
- Timing? Not a big fan personally. This does not change the fact that Soviets to not need an AT vehicle early on. If there is no need to build it early and the ZiS/SU85 cover your late game, no amount of timing changes will do well enough for this unit.


To make it short: I don't think AT capabilities will really fix the issue. Current Soviets need AI when T3 is build, so the only way to make any unit worth building at this time point is by giving it AI. Which is why I'd like it to behave like a mini Stug E. Or at least lower the cost of the barrage or something.

To make it short: I don't think AT capabilities will really fix the issue. Current Soviets need AI when T3 is build, so the only way to make any unit worth building at this time point is by giving it AI. Which is why I'd like it to behave like a mini Stug E. Or at least lower the cost of the barrage or something.

I think penetration scaling is the key, e.g. +30% more pen with vet2 or vet3. The overlap is there with SU-85, but again that is somewhat similar to t-70/t34-76 overlap, because
a) it is low armor, 3 shot HP-wise light armor
b) has low damage, but high ROF
c) even with vet the penetration will still be worse then SU-85

I know the cost of t70/t34 is much more similar then su76/su85, but still.

There is also an argument to gain more acceleration with vet from 20% to 30%. As a trade off 'barrage' scaling could be removed.

With CoH3 (and even AoE4) on the horizon, Relic will surely cease support for CoH2 soon, and reworking both TDs is risky and might need another 2 patches.

Is that your stance on all coh2 balance changes then?

Which type of buff would you suggest for the SU76 then?
- Mobility? Will set it apart from the SU85 for sure. Overall I'd assume it will be hard to do because the SU76 is a casemate. I assume this will also scale very differently depending on the mode, but that's a general issue with casemates.

Yeah. It'd need faster turns and better acceleration.

- Damage to I assume 160? This will make it a supreme choice over the SU85 for mediums. The only way I could see this happening is an unlock for the SU76 at T4 which also costs fuel. However, this increases overlap of both units.

It wouldn't need to be 160, could be less, with still more gained in vet. Almost like it is now, but more damage.

- Timing? Not a big fan personally. This does not change the fact that Soviets to not need an AT vehicle early on. If there is no need to build it early and the ZiS/SU85 cover your late game, no amount of timing changes will do well enough for this unit.

Agreed.

To make it short: I don't think AT capabilities will really fix the issue. Current Soviets need AI when T3 is build, so the only way to make any unit worth building at this time point is by giving it AI. Which is why I'd like it to behave like a mini Stug E. Or at least lower the cost of the barrage or something.

Agreed again. I could see it going to having a gun like the Stuart, and then also a barrage ability that cost muni. Maybe it'd see more play if people didn't think it was an AT unit and it was a bit more versatile.
Would it create overlap with t70? No, because T70 has a far better AI gun.
Would a discount be in order, for its reduced AT damage? Possibly.

the soviet faction in a nutshell. Even after the rework, soviet tech is still busted.

SU 76 vs SU 85

T34/76 vs T34/85

its a delicate balancing act.