SU-76 buff?

if you factor in any 160 damage from any source, indeed it does not make any difference to 640 hp unit. Although it is fairly realistic situation when su-76 is the only source of damage to a specific unit.

Imo, if anything the unit need more penetration to be relevant after arrival of p4, at least make it so 'suchka' pens pre vet2 PIV consistently like it used to couple years ago.

IIRC, the balance team nerfed the penetration so it wouldn't be effective against heavies. I'd be surprised if they undid that. Part of the problem was massed SU76 plus Mark Target was good against heavies

IIRC, the balance team nerfed the penetration so it wouldn't be effective against heavies. I'd be surprised if they undid that. Part of the problem was massed SU76 plus Mark Target was good against heavies

The issue lies more in that almost all axis armour ends up or start at 234 armour, heavies and meds on the axis side are just to close armour wise. So the nerf vs heavies was the same nerf vs mediums in a lot of cases. The only meds it can fight now are vet0/1 ost p4 and ostwind and kite the stug a bit.

And that those units dont arive much later or even earlier then allied counterparts also doesnt help.

Su-76 might had its penetration reduced but it had it accuracy increased.

The change was in the right direction.

Su-76 might had its penetration reduced but it had it accuracy increased.

The change was in the right direction.

Making a unit impotent for its timing isent the right direction imo.

That i needed a nerf is correct. But hurting its combat and utility in such a way that it has no place in any build order at any time is not the way to do it.

Either its vet should allow its old preformance. Or its utility should be reinstated to an extent. Or a role change into a stug e/brumbar light.

Making a unit impotent for its timing isent the right direction imo.

The unit is not impotent for it timing. The change actually made it better for units of the same time since those units have smaller target size and lower armour than medium/heavy tanks.

That i needed a nerf is correct. But hurting its combat and utility in such a way that it has no place in any build order at any time is not the way to do it.

Actually the unit did receive several buff after the accuracy for penetration trade but even that had little impact in increasing the use of the unit.

Either its vet should allow its old preformance. Or its utility should be reinstated to an extent. Or a role change into a stug e/brumbar light.

The unit perform fine for cost. The issue has more to do with the fact that there is very little reason to invest in T3 unit than rushing T4.

This a more a pace/call-in changes issue than a performance issue.

This a problem created by the "rush to last tier" mentality and tech for call-in changes and thus the solution lies in partially reverting these changes instead of continuing to buff the performance of the unit.

For instance if the KV-8 become a call-in unit with not tech (or T3) requirements (and rebalanced as such) there would be a strategy involving Su-76s available.

The SU-76 does not suffer from "Rush to T4 mentality!!!!11!!" it suffers from "this vehicle simply isn't viable for the sizeable fuel setback, i should get the superior towed anti-tank gun"


if it got an accuracy on the move buff (light vehicle hunting), or penetration/reload buff, then it would be a completely fine vehicle for the purpose of "if i make 6 of these, that medium tank over there should fear for his life"

The unit is not impotent for it timing. The change actually made it better for units of the same time since those units have smaller target size and lower armour than medium/heavy tanks.


Actually the unit did receive several buff after the accuracy for penetration trade but even that had little impact in increasing the use of the unit.


The unit perform fine for cost. The issue has more to do with the fact that there is very little reason to invest in T3 unit than rushing T4.

This a more a pace/call-in changes issue than a performance issue.

This a problem created by the "rush to last tier" mentality and tech for call-in changes and thus the solution lies in partially reverting these changes instead of continuing to buff the performance of the unit.

For instance if the KV-8 become a call-in unit with not tech (or T3) requirements (and rebalanced as such) there would be a strategy involving Su-76s available.

There is little reason to get soviet t3 cus its lv only tier wich arrives later then most lv's of other factions. And those are not that much weaker or less usefull late game. I do see your point that the changes to call in units hurt soviet t3 strats quite hard. With soviets this caused the rush tp t4 playstyle.

The quad and su76 dont scale arive quite late and thus have the tiniest window to get a return on their envestment. In case of the su76 it has very little vehicles it can go up against or even threaten at its timing. The puma wich imo is in or at the top of at lv's still has a good chance/use vs t34 shermans etc because of it speed mobility abilities etc. It doesnt face 234 armour stock but 150/160 wich arrive later mostly as well.

The quad and su76 dont scale

the quad is an anti air and will always be useful

on top of what it does to any blob without tank support

the quad is an anti air and will always be useful

on top of what it does to any blob without tank support

About anti air you are right. Its just if its a doc without any air units o well.
I havent seen any 1v1 won for soviets who went quad instead of t70.

Also when the quad arrives their is usualy at ready for the expected t70. So that a blob doesnt have at support is on the rarer side, cuz where else should the at support be instead of near the blob.

There is little reason to get soviet t3 cus its lv only tier wich arrives later then most lv's of other factions. And those are not that much weaker or less usefull late game. I do see your point that the changes to call in units hurt soviet t3 strats quite hard. With soviets this caused the rush tp t4 playstyle.

The "rush to last tier" was a design decision made by MOD team and applies to different degrees to all factions.

Call-in stalling and "rush to last tier" might be related but there are differences.

In the case of Soviet it has mostly to do with "mobilization" bonuses. There is simply very little to unlock "mobilization" in T3.

The quad and su76 dont scale arive quite late and thus have the tiniest window to get a return on their envestment. In case of the su76 it has very little vehicles it can go up against or even threaten at its timing. The puma wich imo is in or at the top of at lv's still has a good chance/use vs t34 shermans etc because of it speed mobility abilities etc. It doesnt face 234 armour stock but 150/160 wich arrive later mostly as well.

I am not sure why you are making the comparison but since you did you have one should also mention that Puma has much lower penetration and accuracy at range 50 than Su-76.

The "rush to last tier" was a design decision made by MOD team and applies to different degrees to all factions.

Call-in stalling and "rush to last tier" might be related but there are differences.

In the case of Soviet it has mostly to do with "mobilization" bonuses. There is simply very little to unlock "mobilization" in T3.


I am not sure why you are making the comparison but since you did you have one should also mention that Puma has much lower penetration and accuracy at range 50 than Su-76.

Yes it aplies to all factions. Other factions also have tiers that are never used but these tend to one of 2 paths you can take. Soviet t3 is mandatory and except for the t70 is skipped outside of building it.
Again its a lv tier wich is unlocked later then it should imo. Until that point if you didnt take svt cons you will probably have had less map control as you cant put out pressure as much. Or you bled heavely. Using lv at this stage just before mediums show up is not good. You need to make the m5 or su76 earn their cost back. Imo that is just very hard to unlikely now with their timing.

Yeah i know the puma has lower pen at range 50. But is has aimed shot with higher then base pen, smoke a turret good speed and mobility. The total package makes it a better choice then the su76.

The 234 armour comparison is to do with that axis already have better tanks stock, the puama faces less strong tanks and has better support stock.

Yes it aplies to all factions. Other factions also have tiers that are never used but these tend to one of 2 paths you can take. Soviet t3 is mandatory and except for the t70 is skipped outside of building it.
Again its a lv tier wich is unlocked later then it should imo. Until that point if you didnt take svt cons you will probably have had less map control as you cant put out pressure as much. Or you bled heavely. Using lv at this stage just before mediums show up is not good. You need to make the m5 or su76 earn their cost back. Imo that is just very hard to unlikely now with their timing.

Yeah i know the puma has lower pen at range 50. But is has aimed shot with higher then base pen, smoke a turret good speed and mobility. The total package makes it a better choice then the su76.

The 234 armour comparison is to do with that axis already have better tanks stock, the puama faces less strong tanks and has better support stock.

Su-76 and Puma comparison is not very helpful.

The unit have different roles and play styles.

The main reason Puma see action is because it can allied light vehicles that else can dominate the game and not because it good vs medium tanks.

Su-76 and Puma comparison is not very helpful.

The unit have different roles and play styles.

The main reason Puma see action is because it can allied light vehicles that else can dominate the game and not because it good vs medium tanks.

Yeah i need to find a better way to explain that. I am tired as of writing these. I didnt say the puma was good vs meds directly but it has imo at least a better chance/use throughout the game then a su76. Partly because allies dont have 234 armour tanks stock, excluding brits ofcourse.

The puma sees action unlike the su76 because it arrives on time to deal with allied lights and it has decent ai and utility and much better vision.

IIRC, the balance team nerfed the penetration so it wouldn't be effective against heavies. I'd be surprised if they undid that. Part of the problem was massed SU76 plus Mark Target was good against heavies

yeah, I remember something like that. "Suchka" got significant far accuracy buff, but got its penetration nerfed.

Perhaps one of the solutions could be change "Mark Vehicle" ability with slight reduction in damage, but offsetting that reduction into reduced target armor and/or receiving accuracy, making it more potent vs heavily armored targets, but less vs PIVs, stugs etc.

Yeah i need to find a better way to explain that. I am tired as of writing these. I didnt say the puma was good vs meds directly but it has imo at least a better chance/use throughout the game then a su76. Partly because allies dont have 234 armour tanks stock, excluding brits ofcourse.

The puma sees action unlike the su76 because it arrives on time to deal with allied lights and it has decent ai and utility and much better vision.

I don't think I can agree with your opinion. Puma does see more action but imo that has to do with the fact that it is needed to counter allied light vehicles. Su-76 is not needed and going T4 is simply more rewarding.

I also doubt that Puma in more cost efficient than Su-76 vs mediums and above. I suggest you calculate the changes to hit and penetrate for Puma and Su-76 vs mediums (or even heavy) because Puma's stat are rather bad at max range.

Puma does have better vision but SU-76 has the extra utility of barrage.

In sort I doubt many people would bother building Pumas if the opponent had not build LV.

SU-76 = buying Present with Selling Future.

I don't think I can agree with your opinion. Puma does see more action but imo that has to do with the fact that it is needed to counter allied light vehicles. Su-76 is not needed and going T4 is simply more rewarding.

I also doubt that Puma in more cost efficient than Su-76 vs mediums and above. I suggest you calculate the changes to hit and penetrate for Puma and Su-76 vs mediums (or even heavy) because Puma's stat are rather bad at max range.

Puma does have better vision but SU-76 has the extra utility of barrage.

In sort I doubt many people would bother building Pumas if the opponent had not build LV.

Yes I rarely see the puma being used vs soviets. Vs usf and ukf it makes sense that is does see more action as their lv timing is earlier and lasts longer then soviets mostly. Again imo soviet lights come to the party to late.
This is the problem imo. why does the faction with no stock ai upgrades get their lv's so late? While all other factions with ai upgrades get their lights earlier?

Vs soviets flak or flametrack is usualy better then a puma as their is no lv close to being build to counter the former. Just zis and ptrs wich they easely get away from or play around, only the clown car with ptrs but that usualy a suicide move and t1 is neccesary.

Also i never meant to say the puma is more effevtive soley vs mediums then the su76. I said the puma has more chance/use throughout the game. The vision of the puma is a big passive free perk, it smoke also can help more then one unit in a pinch. The su76 barrage while usefull makes the su76 vunerable at the same time.

Yes the puma has 50/50 chance to pen a allied med at max range. The su76 70/75ish percent chance to do the same vs okw p4.

The biggest value in the Puma is its aimed shot. Arguably the best ability in the game in terms of power and versatility. I've soloed an IS-2 with a Puma, aimed shot and HEAT.

Yes I rarely see the puma being used vs soviets. Vs usf and ukf it makes sense that is does see more action as their lv timing is earlier and lasts longer then soviets mostly. Again imo soviet lights come to the party to late.
This is the problem imo. why does the faction with no stock ai upgrades get their lv's so late? While all other factions with ai upgrades get their lights earlier?

Vs soviets flak or flametrack is usualy better then a puma as their is no lv close to being build to counter the former. Just zis and ptrs wich they easely get away from or play around, only the clown car with ptrs but that usualy a suicide move and t1 is neccesary.

Also i never meant to say the puma is more effevtive soley vs mediums then the su76. I said the puma has more chance/use throughout the game. The vision of the puma is a big passive free perk, it smoke also can help more then one unit in a pinch. The su76 barrage while usefull makes the su76 vunerable at the same time.

Imo there is an issue with pace of the game also but it is not that Soviet light tanks come too late but that many unit come to early.

Progressively patches have made powerful units available earlier resulting in reducing the window of opportunity for certain units to pay of for the investment. To add to that bonuses have been added for teching last tier. The combination has created the "rush to last tier" meta.

Yes the puma has 50/50 chance to pen a allied med at max range. The su76 70/75ish percent chance to do the same vs okw p4.

Glad that we agree that Puma does not really have penetration advantage Su-76 even when fighting cheaper mediums.

The biggest value in the Puma is its aimed shot. Arguably the best ability in the game in terms of power and versatility. I've soloed an IS-2 with a Puma, aimed shot and HEAT.

To be fair the IS-2 is pretty garbage

then again, that does sound pretty scary