E8 is still trash

the E8 gun is the exact same AOE characteristics of the 76mm Sherman gun (M4C). Still does.

but somehow M4c AI is reliable than Ez8. Weird...

but somehow M4c AI is reliable than Ez8. Weird...

the m4c is actually less reliable per shot due to the much higher scatter. it does, however, fire quite a bit faster (though not by much anymore after the most recent patch) than the e8. so even though the m4c misses more often on average it still drops models and squads faster.
but if you fire pot shots popping in and out of max range to avoid retaliation, the e8 is actually equal if not better than the m4c.

- after searching patch notes more thoroughly, I couldn't find the change to the AOE profile for the Easy 8. It was in one of Relic's updates so it isn't terribly surprising that they forgot to put it into the official patch notes. One of the improvements that the community balance team has brought is that they tell us what they're planning and deliver complete patch notes. I do remember when the E8 was good anti-everything (like a T34/85), but I couldn't tell you when it changed.

Would you accept this if someone else said it? Cause this is literally just a long way of saying "trust me, I sort-of remember". The patchnotes missing things was not as common of an occurrence as you make it out to be either

The most significant change to it's anti-infantry performance I can remember was to it's moving scatter penalty, which is actually in the patchnotes:

M4A3 76mm ‘Easy-Eight
The Easy-Eight will still have lower moving scatter than most other tanks; previously the E8 had no scatter penalties for moving.

Moving scatter from 1 to 1.35

Don't remember them ever changing AOE. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but you didn't make a good case

Would you accept this if someone else said it? Cause this is literally just a long way of saying "trust me, I sort-of remember". The patchnotes missing things was not as common of an occurrence as you make it out to be either

The most significant change to it's anti-infantry performance I can remember was to it's moving scatter penalty, which is actually in the patchnotes:

M4A3 76mm ‘Easy-Eight
The Easy-Eight will still have lower moving scatter than most other tanks; previously the E8 had no scatter penalties for moving.

Moving scatter from 1 to 1.35

Don't remember them ever changing AOE. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but you didn't make a good case

I'd forgot about the scatter penalty. That could've been the only nerf.

I'd forgot about the scatter penalty. That could've been the only nerf.

What is more probable that Easy8 had T34/85 level AI but it was nerfed in secret so that patch notes do not have it or that it was not particularly good in AI and you are simply wrong?

Ninja changes happened, you will have better luck searching for Cruzz posts.

As far as database goes, you could compare current values from saerelia vs http://www.coh2-stats.com/ballistic_weapons/sherman_m1_76mm_easy8_mp

or

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IX68mtMEFLUVZCJpdgLxtm9cLajZATNRwISihru8rZM/edit#gid=16

I would increase the e8s turning speed and its acceleration. I would also look into buffing its speed, and/ or give it flanking speed at vet 1 replacing the focused gunnery ability.


I would give it a WP shell ability to fit better into rifle company as an infantry support tank, and differentiate it from the more AT Sherman 76.

i like that. radio net was great and focused gunnery doesnt seem useful for the us as mobility is their thing

Would you accept this if someone else said it? Cause this is literally just a long way of saying "trust me, I sort-of remember". The patchnotes missing things was not as common of an occurrence as you make it out to be either

PS - I know we've gone a couple rounds about this. If you do a thread search and just put in "Ninja", you'll see about 30 different threads about changes to units that weren't in the patch notes, none of which were started by me. In a lot of those cases, they weren't confirmed but there were also a lot that were confirmed by people like Cruzz. I'm sure you're not in the mood for a "trust me" either, but trust me, they used to be common.

Also, I think you're reading more into this than I'm saying. I didn't say that Relic was doing this as some sort of secret master plot or anything like that. There was always a tendency to try multiple changes to units in the test patches. Most of the time those notes made it into the official patch notes but not always. Trying to find one specific change would require someone to find all of their patch preview change logs, then read all the way through them to see which changes actually happened. That would be a really time consuming task. I don't think any omissions were intentional as much as they just weren't that great about keeping track of their changes.

What is more probable that Easy8 had T34/85 level AI but it was nerfed in secret so that patch notes do not have it or that it was not particularly good in AI and you are simply wrong?

Yeah agreed with Vipper, many changes in the game weren't documented. Even in the earliest days they would stealth change things.

If I remember correctly one of the first stealth changes they made was when people took a look at the game files and they saw that Soviet Guards were named US Rangers which showed that they basically slapped together COH 2 from COH 1 and were so embarrassed they had to lock the game files for years until the mod tools were released.

I am not sure if Cruz is active anymore but he did a good job of finding many of the stealth changes during the games early life cycles.

I remember on launch how amazing the Easy 8 used to be, before it got butchered with stealth nerfs.

i like that. radio net was great and focused gunnery doesnt seem useful for the us as mobility is their thing

Focused Gunnery is just flat out terrible for USF and doesn't fit with the Easy 8. I could see it being something decent for Axis so that they could get 60 range on their tanks at the expense of movement speed/rate of fire but for USF they have the Jackson already so getting a psuedo Jackson which is worse in a shite commander makes no sense.

Though that could be an interesting way the current TD Meta. If every tank destroyer (including things like Elephant and ISU-152) needed to use a focused gunnery like skill to achieve the maximum firing range of the unit at the expense of movement speed/rate of fire.

Would make TD spam less of a thing compared to how it is now and you would actually see people make medium tanks though that is off topic.

Anyway regardless of how they end up changing the easy 8, we have way too many Sherman variants and some of them should be integrated into the core army.

I would use Rifle Company if Easy 8 was replaced with Pershing. Considering Whermacht have numerous commanders with Tiger, more Pershing wouldn't be a bad thing. Especially if one of the commanders would have Assault Engineers for those advocating for it as it would give more variety to the limited USF commander roster.

PS - I know we've gone a couple rounds about this. If you do a thread search and just put in "Ninja", you'll see about 30 different threads about changes to units that weren't in the patch notes, none of which were started by me. In a lot of those cases, they weren't confirmed but there were also a lot that were confirmed by people like Cruzz. I'm sure you're not in the mood for a "trust me" either, but trust me, they used to be common.

Also, I think you're reading more into this than I'm saying. I didn't say that Relic was doing this as some sort of secret master plot or anything like that. There was always a tendency to try multiple changes to units in the test patches. Most of the time those notes made it into the official patch notes but not always. Trying to find one specific change would require someone to find all of their patch preview change logs, then read all the way through them to see which changes actually happened. That would be a really time consuming task. I don't think any omissions were intentional as much as they just weren't that great about keeping track of their changes.

Yeah I don't necessarily dispute any of this. But it came across as you citing that possibility just because you couldn't find what you were looking for

No one can argue against that Relic has made their share of mistakes, and hidden some of them. The stuka bomb ninja change is one of the most ridiculous things that ever happened in the game. It's just not common enough that you can cite it with such concrete certainty either IMO

Also I did not think you were accusing Relic of being nefarious. I think many agree that if something is left out it's most likely just a mistake. All that said, I don't think the Ez8 is one of those cases. I think the moving scatter is the biggest AI nerf it received

E8 had a specific bug with radio net but outside of what has already been mentioned, nothing much else was changed.

I think it used to have the same profile as the M4C. Being able to decrew it and abuse the pop cap, plus being able to take one additional hit was what got it nerfed the first time. I had a game where a teammate got 9 of them. When he hit that critical mass, he completely rolled over his side of the map then hit my side of the map. The other side got really salty.

I've tried it a few times in comp stomps. I don't think it's completely trash but it isn't a huge improvement over a standard Sherman.

Rather than give it any more stat increases, it would be interesting to add an ability:

If the MG upgrade is picked, let it switch between AP and HE. This would make it great against massed infantry.

If the commander upgrade is picked, give it either mark target or a 40 range time-on-target.

i agree it need HE shell or combined with its standard. even if a cost is made to make this tank better at killing inf ill pay more for it. i had a game like that wehere i spammed them and was moving across map killing tanks its fun but at troops and mines will catch up to u

i agree it need HE shell or combined with its standard. even if a cost is made to make this tank better at killing inf ill pay more for it. i had a game like that wehere i spammed them and was moving across map killing tanks its fun but at troops and mines will catch up to u

I don't think it should be combined. One of the traits that Relic always seemed to want with USF is that it punches hard if you have the micro to support it. I think all Shermans should have the choice between AP and HE as a way of distinguishing them from other factions.

Even if the E8 was made better, Rifle company still lack any elite abilities that would justify having it in the loadout. It doesn't have a howitzer, rocket arty, heavy tank, elite infantry, or even a off-map that would counter arty. The E8 might not be trash, but it also isn't good enough to pick this doctrine.

I don't think it should be combined. One of the traits that Relic always seemed to want with USF is that it punches hard if you have the micro to support it. I think all Shermans should have the choice between AP and HE as a way of distinguishing them from other factions.

Even if the E8 was made better, Rifle company still lack any elite abilities that would justify having it in the loadout. It doesn't have a howitzer, rocket arty, heavy tank, elite infantry, or even a off-map that would counter arty. The E8 might not be trash, but it also isn't good enough to pick this doctrine.

Adding HE rounds to Easy8 would make the unit OP.

The units already has a multipurpose gun that excel in the AT department and being able to also excel in AI department (even via switchblade shells) it would make the unit simply OP.

Units that excel at all roles are bad for the game because one can simply win by spamming them.

In addition USF Sherman's tanks already are distinguished because the have crew and half the moving penalty.

Adding switchable round at all Sherman would end up reducing the number of reasons to pick one version over another.

I have been saying this before patch, but if the Easy 8 doesn't work in its role than changing it to be an AT only Panther-like vehicle with better penetration but lower dps against mediums is a far better and easier to balance option. It would be a sidegrade of the Jackson, trading some rate of fire, accuracy on the move, speed and 10 range for 800 hp, 260 armor, default 50 range at 185 fuel (issue is 260 could be too much due to poor Panzer IV penetration)
The vet 1 ability could be a modified Flanking Speed trading some of the acceleration bonus for 75% fire on the move accuracy

I have been saying this before patch, but if the Easy 8 doesn't work in its role than changing it to be an AT only Panther-like vehicle with better penetration but lower dps against mediums is a far better and easier to balance option. It would be a sidegrade of the Jackson, trading some rate of fire, accuracy on the move, speed and 10 range for 800 hp, 260 armor, default 50 range at 185 fuel (issue is 260 could be too much due to poor Panzer IV penetration)
The vet 1 ability could be a modified Flanking Speed trading some of the acceleration bonus for 75% fire on the move accuracy

There will never ever ever EVER be a viable, balanced "alternative" to the Jackson in the jacksons state. It is quite literally impossible. There is zero scenarios that the Jackson won't be the best AT option.
There is no NEED for a front line AT tank and that's the biggest part of the E8s problem, that and the 2 other AT Sherman's and the m10... Each and every single USF AT option is an inferior choice to the Jackson full stop.

Even a Panther clone will lose out because why Duke it iut with the enemy when you can more reliably snipe them for cheaper? You arnt losing anything in terms of mobility like the other 60 range TDs, nor durability. There's nothing left wanting so there is no room to bother with an alternative.