Petition to Nerf/Remove Soviet Mortar Flare

ir ht was nerf until its mainly gone.

the rest are small unit sight, way different from the flare, im sure you knew that.

imo the slight split vet nerf suggested seems the fairest for now, win win for both parties. this is the way

Eh, what?

You do realize the pioneers, scout cars, 222, and IR Halftrack can move?

The Soviets are spending munitions to use a wide, but static recon ability that is relegated to a specific unit.

You still haven't given a single valid reason why that would need to happen.

i already did, you never see? why you keep discrimination me? why you against me?

Eh, what?

You do realize the pioneers, scout cars, 222, and IR Halftrack can move?

The Soviets are spending munitions to use a wide, but static recon ability that is relegated to a specific unit.

does soviet not have their own scout car and sniper? a vet t70 is way better than 222 on a whole too.

the issue with mortar flare is uncounterable, very hard to wipe and comes at cheap vet0 especially in late games

does soviet not have their own scout car and sniper? a vet t70 is way better than 222 on a whole too.

the issue with mortar flare is uncounterable, very hard to wipe and comes at cheap vet0 especially in late games

The t70 comes later is more expensive and its recon disables its main, and disabeling it puts its gun on a cooldown so you cant shoot right after disabeling it.

The 222 after vet harder to coubter esp properly microed. With 65 range you can stay out of harms way easy, spot for td/at gun from absolute safty. And the enemy wont see you seeing them.

You will see the flare, you know you are being watched, you can just move away your units knowing this, you know the soviets just put down one less mine.

does soviet not have their own scout car and sniper?

They have their own costs.

If a Soviet player builds the Rifle Command, they have access to the scout cars, snipers, and Penal squads for light anti-tank. However, their drawback is that they lose their opportunity to consolidate their territory with the support weapon teams. This can be alleviated through doctrinal units, but I'm not sure how frequently Soviet players would go down that path.

a vet t70 is way better than 222 on a whole too.

You are looking at the units in a vacuum, but are not considering the allocated costs it takes to get a T-70.

The combined fuel costs for the Ostheer are much cheaper to overcome than what buildings the Soviets have to construct to get their lightly armored recon vehicle. By the time it does come out, the Soviets have to worry about Pumas, Luchs, Pak40s, or Panzerschreks.

the issue with mortar flare is uncounterable, very hard to wipe and comes at cheap vet0 especially in late games

And?

Every time Soviet mortars use their flares, it means fewer munitions spent on mines, unit abilities, anti-tank grenades, demolition charges, global abilities, etc. Sure, they'll have a thirty-second recon timer, but it's nowhere on the scale of flares used by the OKW or the British. The former can use a global ability anywhere they want and the latter can spend munitions for flares alongside an entire frontline.

Mind you, we're talking about a mediocre mortar team whose extra infantry models are dead weight to the population and are relied upon for their utility rather than the killing performance that the Ostheer mortar is capable of. If it actually kills anything then it is a plus.

....

Mind you, we're talking about a mediocre mortar team whose extra infantry models are dead weight to the population and are relied upon for their utility rather than the killing performance that the Ostheer mortar is capable of. If it actually kills anything then it is a plus.

That is simply false:
Both mortars have a pop of 6

In addition it is already established that MP-41 is not that much worse than GrW 34, a bit worse auto attack a bit better barrage.

That is simply false:
Both mortars have a pop of 6

In addition it is already established that MP-41 is not that much worse than GrW 34, a bit worse auto attack a bit better barrage.

if i am not wrong, the sov mortar have better survivability too!

so there's another reason to move half the flare times to vet1, at least.

its a small of smallest change to better reflect how easy in late game to build a map hack unit

if i am not wrong, the sov mortar have better survivability too!

Completely irrelevant, if your indirect is being fired on by another indirect, you move it.
If its directly attacked, you bail instantly to avoid loss, crew number plays no role here.

so there's another reason to move half the flare times to vet1, at least.

That's no reason at all.
That's like saying ost mortars performance should be halved and remaining half locked behind vet, because it can sit next to 251/command bunker and never die.

its a small of smallest change to better reflect how easy in late game to build a map hack unit

By that logic, we should nerf IR halftruck, because of how easy it is to build this map hack in late game.
That's not reason, that's desperate grasping at straws.

thats the thing, IRHT was already nerf because of map hack complaints.

the sov mortar while intention is good, imo it was overlooked at the late game potential of this map hack at vet0.

right now, you can say it sov mortar is more useful than ost mortar and has more uses than IRHT.

I find it amazing how you both, see how stupid your argument is and don't at the same time depending on which unit you look at.

If that isn't double standards at its prime, I don't know what is.

But as I have said, if you don't like this so much, we can replace flare with precision strike.

I find it amazing how you both, see how stupid your argument is and don't at the same time depending on which unit you look at.

If that isn't double standards at its prime, I don't know what is.

But as I have said, if you don't like this so much, we can replace flare with precision strike.

but where is the double standard?

why flare shouldnt be lock to vet1?

its like saying cb should be vet0 too?

sov mortar has the same level of performance now, but with more survivability and have ability useable from the go. not just any, but a map hack kind. at the time when we are trying to close the gap of too easy sight ability

why you against me? why you call me stupid? you are so toxic person.

but where is the double standard?

why flare shouldnt be lock to vet1?

For the exact same reason maxims sustained fire or ZIS-3 barrage are not vet1 locked.

Flare at ost would be batshit op.
Its fine at soviets due to lower base performance of equivalent weapons and dual role nature.

why would flare on ost be batshit op? tell us then.

soviet dont have lower base performance these days, not as much. sorry.

players dont feel the impact of vet0 mortar flare because of how innocuous looking during its activation.

but when i play sov (4v4, im not good as sov 2v2), i drop flares like a lmao to reveal the map for big rewards. its really rewarding late game, too ez.

why would flare on ost be batshit op? tell us then.

soviet dont have lower base performance these days, not as much. sorry.

players dont feel the impact of vet0 mortar flare because of how innocuous looking during its activation.

but when i play sov (4v4, im not good as sov 2v2), i drop flares like a lmao to reveal the map for big rewards. its really rewarding late game, too ez.

You spamm flares and you can still upgrade inf, plant mines, call in offmaps?

You are right that scouting and vision is very strong and rewarding. But in soviets case all scouting/ vision abilities are behind muni/vet or both or behind a toggle with downsides.
Only the m3 isent and comes close the 222 with none of these downsides but its incredebly easy to kill and isent used nearly at all anymore.

You spamm flares and you can still upgrade inf, plant mines, call in offmaps?

You are right that scouting and vision is very strong and rewarding. But in soviets case all scouting/ vision abilities are behind muni/vet or both or behind a toggle with downsides.
Only the m3 isent and comes close the 222 with none of these downsides but its incredebly easy to kill and isent used nearly at all anymore.

the whole it cost 30muni is weak justification. which flare and recon planes don't?

in the era when the concerns is back on sight abilities like spotting scopes, specs ops and sniper sight, it's cheeky that sov mortar was missed

even sov sniper needs vet to unlock flare, yet a more durable mortar unit got away

as i said, because of how low key flare graphical representation is, most opponents don't know what hits them in late game

whenever i play sov, i am very very happy to deploy mortar flare, such a cheeky give away

sov mortar is better than ost mortar, there i said it. what's cb going to do? hit back at katy?

the whole it cost 30muni is weak justification. which flare and recon planes don't?

in the era when the concerns is back on sight abilities like spotting scopes, specs ops and sniper sight, it's cheeky that sov mortar was missed

In case you are completely tone deaf, that "era" of concern is directed specifically at passive/one time purchase/anywhere on the map and uncounterable abilities.

Sniper sight nerfs have absolutely nothing to do with overpowered ability to scout, its to kill cancer sniper plays.

even sov sniper needs vet to unlock flare, yet a more durable mortar unit got away

Sov sniper doesn't exactly have problems hitting or killing models.

Soviet mortar got flare to increase its utility to counterweight ost mortars ability to just murderfuck team weapons.

as i said, because of how low key flare graphical representation is, most opponents don't know what hits them in late game

Should there be a visible indicator for opponents being in sight of spotting scopes too then?
Do allies magically know they are in sight in that case?

When mortar shells start falling on you accurately, its quite a give-away that mortar flare was used on you even if you miss the flare itself.

whenever i play sov, i am very to deploy mortar flare, such a cheeky give away

And whenever I play, I use it sporadically, because if you want to use it with any reliable frequency, you are not going to have muni for critical mines, off maps, elite inf nades, ZiS barrages and many more equally or more valuable abilities.

4v4 fuckfests aren't exactly good indicators of viability or usability of, well, anything, because anything will work well there.

Flare is not bad, but it most certainly is not good enough to warrant any kind of nerf to it.

nah mortar flare is too good, it costs less muni than recon planes, yet uncounterable and you just need a tech building to deploy it

if i am not wrong, the sov mortar have better survivability too!

This is more important at MGs or ATGs which are more likely to get targeted by small arms fire of infantry. If mortar gets targeted by indirect fire you will still get a small survivability boost vs alpha strike damage (the damage over the time you need o react and retreat or relocate), but on the downside it bleeds you more. You are more likely to loose multiple soldiers to a single attack. So there is a downside to sixth man mortar crews you may not have thought off.

This is more important at MGs or ATGs which are more likely to get targeted by small arms fire of infantry. If mortar gets targeted by indirect fire you will still get a small survivability boost vs alpha strike damage (the damage over the time you need o react and retreat or relocate), but on the downside it bleeds you more. You are more likely to loose multiple soldiers to a single attack. So there is a downside to sixth man mortar crews you may not have thought off.

If, in your opinion, there is important down side, in having 6 men crews for your mortar, here is tip for you, do not reinforce you mortars to full and leave them at 4 men.
It is an option after all.

So there is a downside to sixth man mortar crews you may not have thought off.

How so? You dont have downside of having 6 man crews unless you cap weapons. Regular mortar dies when you have 1 model left, meaning you have 4 spare models to have, unlike other mortar teams which have only 2.

Lets say you was attacked and lost 3 or even 4 models, you still have your mortar alive with original crew which is cheap to reinforce. Other faction would have get mortar de-crewed and would requare to re-cap it.

Even if you cap it with the engi squad, it would still cost you more to reinforce 3 models+1 model on the team weapon, then for soviets to reinforce 4 models of the original crew.