Posts: 1563
I think this deserves a nerf now, 62.5 range panther with 960 HP and 260 frontal armor is way too OP for something coming in at 175 fuel. The TDs not cant even trade with panther in this situation and Allies have to risk bleeding as they dont have a choice.
Remember when ISU was nerfed because 70 range AI was way too OP with a tank that could be made only once contrary to panther.
Posts: 1563
'm not sure if I like the idea of Ele's being able to out range 17 lbr.
StuG, yeah mwah. However the Brummbar has -25/25 gun traverse, that's more than enough to cover an entire VP or whatever frontline area. The Elefant gets an astonishing 87,5 range, that alone in itself can be ridiculously good even if it only gets 1 or 2 shots off, and with its decent -15/15 gun traverse, the end of that cone covers quite a massive area. And since the most popular maps are the laney ones, Hull Down is easily good enough for these two.
Posts: 195
Anyone else find it weird that people are already wanting to nerf the least used ability in the game before we even see how changes affect things?
Posts: 132
I mean you can always use an ATG.
The ISU was nerfed because it does very high alpha damage plus at 70 range there was literally no way to counter it. Especially with 50 range Axis TDs.
A 62,5 range Panther can still be damaged by 60 range ATGs and Allied TDs. If this is good enough we will see.
If some nerf were needed, I'd go for some delay before a hulled down unit can drive again or some other soft parameter, but no combat stats.
Posts: 132
Unlike the ISU panther can't fight ATG's.
Posts: 783
M1 and Jackson suck at penetrating panther with or without vet, I have had vet 2 Jackson with AP round bounce on Panther frontally and that was without hull down.
Unlike panther ISU can't fight tanks that well - it has a far penetration of 200 as compared to far penetration of 220 on panther. But I get that it outranges panther by 20, but its AT sucks and I once had A shell of ISU bounce frontally on a vet 2 Okw pz4 imagine that, how stalin would have committed suicide on the spot.
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
M1 and Jackson suck at penetrating panther with or without vet, I have had vet 2 Jackson with AP round bounce on Panther frontally and that was without hull down. So as I said pushing AT guns will cause bleed right whereas Panther can easily trade well with any TDs allies have and also come out on top. I could say it is so OP that it can go against 2 non vet Jackson and kill one and still get away with low health.
You are experienced enough for me to explain to you how OST fares in 4v4 right, the Allies can barely manage to stay afloat because of their TDs which trade well. This hull down in particular devoids this strat of Allies. I dont know why this hull-down deserved this buff which made vehicles independent to use this strat now it can be easily spammed throughout.
There would hardly be any match in formats 2v2+ where ISU would not be up against Elefant but since you claim that there was no way to counter it with Pak43s and Elefant readily available in OST commanders, what way does the Allies have to counter the Elefant now? Keeping in mind that not everyone can make a 17 pounder.
Posts: 1563
Nope, I was correcting your basis for reducing hull down panthers range. for ISU 70 range HE was an issue as it allowed it to counter ATG's. Panther even in hull down can't counter it's natural counter.
Unlike panther ISU can't fight tanks that well - it has a far penetration of 200 as compared to far penetration of 220 on panther. But I get that it outranges panther by 20, but its AT sucks and I once had A shell of ISU bounce frontally on a vet 2 Okw pz4 imagine that, how stalin would have committed suicide on the spot. ISU was heavily used as long range AI, but its not that it was not counterable right, every 3v3 or 4v4 with OST always had an elefant commander which is the best counter to ISU. Coming back to the topic, panther here can now independently hull down and easily trade with Allied TDs and always come out on top so that is where the issue starts. You have to risk bleeding AT guns or take counter damage while sniping a single hull-down panther from long range.
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Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
[outdated post]
Posts: 1273
By artillery you mean off maps? At least one of them has the railway arty though. But we will see. With a lot of abilities being switched and altered, we don't know yet how exactly the commander will play.
There's also a lot of commanders that have an early give-away for what will happen in the late game, the late game units/abilities are still being played. I think this is more of a concern for the late game unit than for the early one (in our case Elefant/railway arty and hull down, respectively)
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
I removed my post about a minute after I posted it, I had in mind that there was only one with hull down (Elefant Commander). There are also upcoming commander changes. That shows that it has been a while since I played with the railway artillery commander or Hull Down... Personally, I like HullDown, but the commanders are very limiting compared to other available ones that cover a full range of possible 2on2 plays. Thus, I barely chose it, I think the last time I picked it was for a modded patch 2on2 game.
Yeah, I meant artillery that includes off-maps and long-range units/builds. There aren't many commanders out there that add strong mid and end game concerns to the opposite team. I prefer to load out commanders so that the enemy cannot fully be confident that their FRP is safe, their expensive units are safe, and/or skill plans might land on their beloved toys at any time. Hull Down commanders don't really offer that range of play. If Hull down was added to the (for example top 5) most equipped commanders as per coh2stats, only then perhaps it might be considered as stronger than what it is now. But for now, considering it is only in limiting commanders, there is no need to have it redesigned and modified in any way.
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So we heard a lot during years about Brit's simcity and now the same people are promoting Ostheer simcity that outrange most of all of their respective counters.
Bear with me, what's are the most appropriate counters to Brit simcity? Panther? Elefant? Atgun? Or Stuka, mortar, Brumbar, Pwerfer, Lieg. Good luck damaging panther on hulldown with the Scott, 80mm mortar or katyushas.
Someone mentioned Atgun, lol? since the panther will be there already with better armor and range that's mean the only support you can provide to the atgun are infantry units and we all know how infantry without tank in support do well on the late game!
The only thing that make the current hulldown balanced today is that its not used, once people start using it that's just going to ruin the game.
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The best counter of hull done tank is "heat barrage" or timed fused barrage both available to Allies.
You can also use ground attack atgs.
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Which says a lot of how the ability is only balanced by the fact no one use it.
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+25% range and +25% armour, with no drawback
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I'd call not being able to move a pretty large drawback.
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