Late game performances of Volksgrenadiers and veterancy

Honestly Volksgrenadiers basically want to be like Osttruppen.

Honestly Volksgrenadiers basically want to be like Osttruppen.

Volksgrenadiers easily have nearly twice the DPS of Osttruppen.

although it must be ensured that the buff doesn't change the Volks vs. Rifles/Sections matchup too much.

Lets be honest here, Rifles and Tommies are so much ahead of volks in late game, so even with 2 huge buffs, volks would still be infirior. There is such a huge power-gap from early-to-mid-to-late its not even funny.

Lets be honest here, Rifles and Tommies are so much ahead of volks in late game, so even with 2 huge buffs, volks would still be infirior. There is such a huge power-gap from early-to-mid-to-late its not even funny.

I'm aware, but it is nevertheless important changes happen slowly so unforeseen consequences can be avoided.

The reason why the Maxim is allowed to cost the same as the MG42 and more than the MG34 is because the Maxim is not the player's primary source of anti-infantry power. In other words, it only sucks in comparison because its not important enough to be the focal point of the faction. You could make the same argument with Obers being the main source of anti infantry but this argument is flawed because Obers come out late, are not mainlines, are expensive, and mostly importantly, limited to 1 squad in most cases. I'm comparing Volks and 7-man Cons in a vacuum because there is nothing wrong with the overall Soviet vs. OKW matchup. The only thing wrong is the game-defying matchup between late game Volks and late game Cons.

Imo obers timing should be bufded as i said before same with rec acc for volks possibly with stg going to doctrines.

The matchup for sov okw is mostly fine but armour wise okw gets a very big advantidge late game. Soviets need an edge somewhere late game, utility was tried and it failed their arty isnet much better so that only leaves the inf department. And cons can be countered still just not by charging in volks or outlasting them with inf 1v1.

Didn't read anything past the 1st page so I apologize if this has been discussed.

Part of the strength of volks is also their weaknesses- they hit their full potential after the first truck is placed. They get STGs, lava nade and their snare, comparing to cons is a bit off considering that between first truck placed and soviet t4 volks are generating value against stock conscripts. Cons superior late game performance comes in part at the price of not having it until the late game. It would frankly be absolutely bullshit if volks got their upgrade at T1 and it enabled them to be competitive with cons getting theirs at t4, considering that would also mean they would be trashinh cons up to the point of them getting the upgrade...

Volks need something but that something is a vet rework. Con upgrade has nothing to do with it.

Volksgrenadiers easily have nearly twice the DPS of Osttruppen.

This is correct, though my point is that being an ostruppen-like unit is what Volksgrenadiers /should/ be, it synergises better with OKW's other infantry selections than the current design.

Imo obers timing should be bufded as i said before same with rec acc for volks possibly with stg going to doctrines.

I agree, Ober timing should be buffed to around the first truck deployment (Though when fielded at this point they must be weaker than their current strength). The reasoning being simply that it allows the OKW player to fit them into their infantry builds more easily, and gives them more time to gain veterancy.

Ober performance is already fantastic, I really think the only issue with that unit is how difficult it can be to fit them into infantry builds.

And cons can be countered still just not by charging in volks or outlasting them with inf 1v1.

Volks can't outlast Cons late game. That's the focal point of my comparison, that there is a disparity between the cost of Volks and the performance of Volks (or, if you'd like the other way around, the cost of 7-man Cons and the performance of 7-man Cons, but I would consider it more the former).

Volks can't outlast Cons late game. That's the focal point of my comparison, that there is a disparity between the cost of Volks and the performance of Volks (or, if you'd like the other way around, the cost of 7-man Cons and the performance of 7-man Cons, but I would consider it more the former).

Cost disparaties are not uncommon or bad. Like i said before with the mxim vs axis mg's to wich you replied with good reasoning.

I'll say it again conscripts dont have elite inf backing them up, nor a good medium tank, nor do they have a super heavy wich okw has all stock, you know different factions etc. Hence the cost disparity is fine, even though cons arent any cheaper as the game drags on.

Up until the 7th man volks beat cons at every range almost always, until that point wich is the late game you need to 2v1 every volks squad or avoid fights. Until the 7th man volks generate more value/map control then cons can.

The problem is obers not getting build and see next to no use. Not that cons beat volks in the late game.

Volks can't outlast Cons late game.

They are not supposed to.
7 man cons was made specifically to outlast other infantry, focus fire and explosives is how you counter them, not small arms, cover to cover small arms duels is how you lose to cons in late game.

That's the focal point of my comparison, that there is a disparity between the cost of Volks and the performance of Volks (or, if you'd like the other way around, the cost of 7-man Cons and the performance of 7-man Cons, but I would consider it more the former).

Volks vastly outperform cons across the whole game until cons get 7th man. You have value disparity that goes together with performance disparity in favor of volks for the whole game where volks are meant to operate alone.

There would be balance issue if 7 man volks arrived at the same time as stg volks, but that clearly is not the case.

IMO so much of this problem is the result of streamlining out pure upgrades like the COH kampfkraft center veterancy, or supply yard.

I don't think people are frustrated with the economic balance so much as they don't want every game to result in volks being worthless.

I think what people want is the option to upgrade their infantry +5% damage -5% RA for like 100 manpower 100 fuel instead of always being forced into the "Axis tank good Axis infantry bad" matchup.

The same style of upgrades should be available to allies obviously. The idea is that a resource advantage isn't exclusively realized by simply build moar unit.

Didn't read anything past the 1st page so I apologize if this has been discussed.

Part of the strength of volks is also their weaknesses- they hit their full potential after the first truck is placed. They get STGs, lava nade and their snare, comparing to cons is a bit off considering that between first truck placed and soviet t4 volks are generating value against stock conscripts. Cons superior late game performance comes in part at the price of not having it until the late game.

Volks need something but that something is a vet rework. Con upgrade has nothing to do with it.

You brought up a very good point about "timings". If Volks got better at what point would cons or other squads actually not be on the backfoot? People have suggested late game RA buffs or MP costs which would probably satisfy both camps since they just become a useful screening unit that has a useful toolset.

On the subject of Obers and throwing volks away, you'd figure that having a flame and at nade would be reason enough to keep some of them around. That and screening for your important units. The issue with getting obers out is the same issue most elite infantry have is that they are too far away and you can't afford to put off building and you can't afford to hoard manpower until they are allowed to be fielded.

CoH1 vs CoH2 comparisons don't exactly work because coh1 was designed around allies win early axis win late. Allies fought for veterency axis bought their veterency. So late game you would have terminator Grens that even if wiped did nothing to dmg the axis player because they were meant to win at that point. In this case we sort of have role reversal where Volks will be highly vetted before obers come out and obers have to fight for it. Which obers would get help vetting up if the volks were meatshields for the obers to shoot at the opponents vetted squads.

You brought up a very good point about "timings". If Volks got better at what point would cons or other squads actually not be on the backfoot? People have suggested late game RA buffs or MP costs which would probably satisfy both camps since they just become a useful screening unit that has a useful toolset.

On the subject of Obers and throwing volks away, you'd figure that having a flame and at nade would be reason enough to keep some of them around. That and screening for your important units. The issue with getting obers out is the same issue most elite infantry have is that they are too far away and you can't afford to put off building and you can't afford to hoard manpower until they are allowed to be fielded.

CoH1 vs CoH2 comparisons don't exactly work because coh1 was designed around allies win early axis win late. Allies fought for veterency axis bought their veterency. So late game you would have terminator Grens that even if wiped did nothing to dmg the axis player because they were meant to win at that point. In this case we sort of have role reversal where Volks will be highly vetted before obers come out and obers have to fight for it. Which obers would get help vetting up if the volks were meatshields for the obers to shoot at the opponents vetted squads.

id like to see obers sooner yet as well, maybe after 2nd truck built? or at least placed (so it could in turn be "rushed" with a med mech and hopefully have momentum to carry into schwere) but thats a lot of IFs

on volks, they are not supposed to be the punching force of okw, but the holding forces, so what about a bonus in firneld territorry? a rec acc buff, or even a damage reduction...? lock it behind schwere, maybe have it as a purchased upgrade, and part of the OKW vet rework could be a pop cap reduction at vet 5 say.

then they could hold, in a unique way, and with an earned pop reduction they can maintain their useage without barring troops that are supposed to outshine them?

it a lot, and kinda out there, but eh, it could work in the right values...

CoH1 vs CoH2 comparisons don't exactly work because coh1 was designed around allies win early axis win late. Allies fought for veterency axis bought their veterency. So late game you would have terminator Grens that even if wiped did nothing to dmg the axis player because they were meant to win at that point. In this case we sort of have role reversal where Volks will be highly vetted before obers come out and obers have to fight for it. Which obers would get help vetting up if the volks were meatshields for the obers to shoot at the opponents vetted squads.

I'm not sure how the latter part dismisses comparisons to CoH1.

CoH's strategic upgrades allowed for multiple distinct playstyles in the game that didn't necessarily guarantee a win for either side at some point in the game, though perhaps one might have an advantage. USF had the option of fielding absurd amounts of infantry late game, or absurd amounts of armor, or an absurd amount of combined arms units.

Wehr could field vet 3 knights cross and other infantry, or push for one of the tiger varients, or even rely on carefully placed 88mms to bleed your opponents of VPs.

CoH2 has very little variation along these lines, with most of the strategic choices boiling down to little more than choosing 3x infantry, or 4x infantry. Heavies or spam mediums.

All match-ups boil down to allies having ultimate infantry supremacy, and axis having ultimate vehicle supremacy in the late game. There's no war machine to give USF armor supremacy, and there's no vet 3 KCH to give axis infantry supremacy.

I'm not sure how the latter part dismisses comparisons to CoH1.

CoH's strategic upgrades allowed for multiple distinct playstyles in the game that didn't necessarily guarantee a win for either side at some point in the game, though perhaps one might have an advantage. USF had the option of fielding absurd amounts of infantry late game, or absurd amounts of armor, or an absurd amount of combined arms units.

Wehr could field vet 3 knights cross and other infantry, or push for one of the tiger varients, or even rely on carefully placed 88mms to bleed your opponents of VPs.

CoH2 has very little variation along these lines, with most of the strategic choices boiling down to little more than choosing 3x infantry, or 4x infantry. Heavies or spam mediums.

All match-ups boil down to allies having ultimate infantry supremacy, and axis having ultimate vehicle supremacy in the late game. There's no war machine to give USF armor supremacy, and there's no vet 3 KCH to give axis infantry supremacy.

I agree with you on most things, I mean companies in coh1 play a far larger role then coh2s commanders for starters.

My point was that they have entirely different philosophies. That getting an ober doesn't equate to getting a Gren in Coh1 because of the implication. You can in CoH1 just abandon volks because at a certain point your strategy had called for it and your Grens are only going to start snowballing. Wheras in CoH2 the ober has to work his way up and can get wiped in an instant setting you back immensely. You can't toss volks in coh2 to the side because of as you said "4x infantry" is just the core standard of things so you can't get by with a low volks build.

id like to see obers sooner yet as well, maybe after 2nd truck built? or at least placed (so it could in turn be "rushed" with a med mech and hopefully have momentum to carry into schwere) but thats a lot of IFs

Obersts easily can arrive around 2 CP like all other elite inf, only with rifles and LMG being untouched.

But at the same time, question is, would be enouth in a long run? Sure, it will slightly help OKW, but Obersts arriving so early, aside from the fact that they will be vetted, wont change whole Volks situation.

I mean, the fact that they will be vetted, probably wont change that much, not to mention that by the time of 2 CPs, you can already have StGs on volks. It might be very oppressive if you add Obests to volks power-spike.

Imo, there should be just an late game upgrade + some slight vet rework for volks. Since even Ostheer get reinfocement reduction with T4.
Maybe OKW can resive something simular, if Volks are garbage and they have to be supplemented by Obests in late game, then give OKW upgrade which cuts volks population and reinfocement, so you can actually add more elite AI inf into your army, without being pop-cap locked.

Also I want to add, that unlike other mainlines Volks are the only one which is pretty much irreplaceable. If you lost your vetted squad past mid-game, you wont be able to vet up new one most likely. Other factions at least have strong weapon upgrades to keep new squads somewhat usefull.

My point was that they have entirely different philosophies.

Ah, I see and agree. I'm just lamenting that these strategic choices got removed. They solved problems such as the one at hand where volks can't just be sacrificed for obers, but can't really be buffed either without changes to the rest of the army.

It's probably too late to change these things, but perhaps the balance team might consider adding in some more strategic upgrades to open up more play styles.

Also I want to add, that unlike other mainlines Volks are the only one which is pretty much irreplaceable. If you lost your vetted squad past mid-game, you wont be able to vet up new one most likely. Other factions at least have strong weapon upgrades to keep new squads somewhat usefull.

This is also a huge problem. The best solution would probably just have T3 or something give a received accuracy bonus to Volks.

This is also a huge problem. The best solution would probably just have T3 or something give a received accuracy bonus to Volks.

id sooner a pop reduction. then they stay unique (keeping in kind i want a vet rework, this is contingent on that). i really hate the idea of just slapping rec acc buff on them, especially because late game cover is abundant so its clearly not that that is the issue. rec acc just makes being bad less punishing instead of being good more rewarding imo (obviously within a limit)