Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback

And that is why you are so diligently ignoring this topic, despite having been talking about it for many years. And even more so, my tongue did not turn to call the T-34-76 good, this is the worst medium tank of the game.

I don't really understand how you could claim I'm ignoring the topic when you're literally quoting me asking people for ideas.

And as others have said already, and I'm getting tired of having to explain this, the 76's core strength is cost efficiency. Both in singular use, in acquiring critical mass, and in trading. This is what makes it a good unit. But it's up to the player to make good use of it.

But the T-34 is STUPID cost effective. For 90 fuel you get an AI slaughter machine with some of the best MGs period. Its only problem is craptastic pen, all other Allied mediums get penned consistently. T-34/76s showed up consistently in the Pro scene. The T-34/85 consistently slaps OST P4s and stands up to OKW P4s with even better AI then the /76.

Its no good in big team, but no mediums are. The issue is the T-70 does the same job (markedly worse), but shows up way earlier. Its 70 fuel vs 90. Ram is quite good used as a last ditch with its new infinite pen. VERY gnarly.

A good Vet 1 would be a faster decap speed for the current capture ability. Crank that up so it can pop cutoffs in a reasonable amount of time. Don't juice cap speed.

It's not economical its cost is productivity cost, which is damn bad. Waste 90 fuel on a good machine gun? No thank you, there is a T-70. And the nerf of the T-70 is not a buff for the T-34-76, in other aspects the T-34-76 is terrible and is needed mainly only as an expensive stun ability. Pz 4 will arrive earlier than the T-34-76 (if everyone is holding the fuel point), or the same time as the Shermans and Cromwell. I will always prefer any other tank than the T-34-76. The only role when his "cost effective" plays is when you keep two fuel points for a long time and you just roll the enemy with a roller from the T-34. But if the enemy gave two fuel points, then in general, then you won. In other situations, the T-34 is simply pointless and it is better to spend its price on a Katyusha.

I don't really understand how you could claim I'm ignoring the topic when you're literally quoting me asking people for ideas.

And as others have said already, and I'm getting tired of having to explain this, the 76's core strength is cost efficiency. Both in singular use, in acquiring critical mass, and in trading. This is what makes it a good unit. But it's up to the player to make good use of it.

Well, of course, only now you forget that this topic has been diligently ignored for many years.

A good Vet 1 would be a faster decap speed for the current capture ability. Crank that up so it can pop cutoffs in a reasonable amount of time. Don't juice cap speed.

maybe make it a timed ability instead of a toggle. one that gives boosted cap/decap rate, but only long enough to do one or the other. then you could quickly decap enemy territory OR rapidly cap neutral, but not both at once with the same tank.

A good Vet 1 would be a faster decap speed for the current capture ability. Crank that up so it can pop cutoffs in a reasonable amount of time. Don't juice cap speed.

I just had the idea of improving secure mode with vet as well, then saw you just posted it.
Either unlock at vet1 and improve with vet 2/3. Or make it vet0 (it is not that good of an ability anyway) and improve with vet. This would also yield some more benefit to amassing T34s and therefore fit the theme.

Armadillos suggestion as a timed ability could also work, however it would probably fit better with mun cost then.

One could lower T-34/85's hmg DPS to that of PzIV and have vet 1 add "tank desant" with the DPS of pintle.

That would allow the T-34/85 to perform as German tank.

One could lower T-34/85's hmg DPS to that of PzIV and have vet 1 add "tank desant" with the DPS of pintle.

That would allow the T-34/85 to perform as German tank.

No, thanks. Just leave T-34-85 alone. It is balanced now.

as T-34s capture point ability, How about let it fire only machine guns at vet 2 ?
That make your T-34s worthy.

No, thanks. Just leave T-34-85 alone. It is balanced now.

T34/85 is fine. The doctrines it comes with are not so much however.

then fix, change or buff another stuff around it instead.

The T-34/85 is a fantastic tank and is perfect in it's current state. Touching it would be a massive mistake. Even if it's Vet 1 ability is a little irrelevant that's okay since it's such a minor issue at the end of the day.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the new M4C Sherman which is basically worthless at everything compared to it's peers. When looking at Soviet Armor options previously every one of them had a preferred role that they fulfilled. Specifically in this instance the M4C Sherman was a designated AT Premium Medium. Since the Firerate Nerf the M4C Sherman loses so much punch vs Armor that both the KV1 and the T-34/85 come anywhere from significantly outperforming to being at worst comparable in At capability even with HVAP. Not only that but the M4C Sherman both requires a 60 Muni upgrade to be able to even think about fighting infantry, and even then it pales in comparison to all other Soviet options available vs infantry, even losing to the KV1 in damage output.

There is literally no reason to ever want to build this unit anymore. it's actually completely invalidated in it's existence by both the T-34/85 and KV1 while it's attempting to solo as effectively the cornerstone of an entire doctrine by itself.

The T-34/85 is a fantastic tank and is perfect in it's current state. Touching it would be a massive mistake. Even if it's Vet 1 ability is a little irrelevant that's okay since it's such a minor issue at the end of the day.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the new M4C Sherman which is basically worthless at everything compared to it's peers. When looking at Soviet Armor options previously every one of them had a preferred role that they fulfilled. Specifically in this instance the M4C Sherman was a designated AT Premium Medium. Since the Firerate Nerf the M4C Sherman loses so much punch vs Armor that both the KV1 and the T-34/85 come anywhere from significantly outperforming to being at worst comparable in At capability even with HVAP. Not only that but the M4C Sherman both requires a 60 Muni upgrade to be able to even think about fighting infantry, and even then it pales in comparison to all other Soviet options available vs infantry, even losing to the KV1 in damage output.

There is literally no reason to ever want to build this unit anymore. it's actually completely invalidated in it's existence by both the T-34/85 and KV1 while it's attempting to solo as effectively the cornerstone of an entire doctrine by itself.

It's probably a bit harsh to conclude the new M4C will be comparatively worthless after the ROF nerf, but I agree it certainly lost a lot of its appeal over the other premium med options the soviets can field. I'd wish the 76mm could get at least a bit of its ROF back via Vet to make up for the drop in both AI and AT performance. That way it wouldn't be too oppressive right out of the gate and keeping it alive would be more rewarding.
Another thing that could make the soviet M4C more interesting would be some sort of compensation for not having access to on-the-field repairs through vehicle crews like its USF counterpart has. Obviously soviet vehicle crews are out of the question, but what if the M4C could get a vehicle repair ability, maybe gated behind Vet 1 if needed, to make up for this?

As for the secure mode ability, I'd go for either improving cap/decap rate as suggested before, or just allow the hull/coax MGs to fire while it's active. Right now it feels highly situational and apart from maybe blocking a last-minute VP capture attempt I haven't seen anyone make good use of it in a while.

Another thing that could make the soviet M4C more interesting would be some sort of compensation for not having access to on-the-field repairs through vehicle crews like its USF counterpart has. Obviously soviet vehicle crews are out of the question, but what if the M4C could get a vehicle repair ability, maybe gated behind Vet 1 if needed, to make up for this?

You do remember that the doc M4C Sherman come from has con repair kit. And now that even penals can repair, Your entire army not just the 2 engines can repair the tank, it already has access to versatile repairs as you can you use your front line infantry.

I'd like to make a suggestion for the soviet Airborne Tactics.

Redesign what the weapons crate does for Penals, currently that upgrade for penals is not worth it.
Also allow Airborne Guards to equip PTRS by picking up weapons crates. It's 2 cps with 60 muni cost now.

It's probably a bit harsh to conclude the new M4C will be comparatively worthless after the ROF nerf, but I agree it certainly lost a lot of its appeal over the other premium med options the soviets can field. I'd wish the 76mm could get at least a bit of its ROF back via Vet to make up for the drop in both AI and AT performance. That way it wouldn't be too oppressive right out of the gate and keeping it alive would be more rewarding.
Another thing that could make the soviet M4C more interesting would be some sort of compensation for not having access to on-the-field repairs through vehicle crews like its USF counterpart has. Obviously soviet vehicle crews are out of the question, but what if the M4C could get a vehicle repair ability, maybe gated behind Vet 1 if needed, to make up for this?

As for the secure mode ability, I'd go for either improving cap/decap rate as suggested before, or just allow the hull/coax MGs to fire while it's active. Right now it feels highly situational and apart from maybe blocking a last-minute VP capture attempt I haven't seen anyone make good use of it in a while.

The idea that unit shared from two faction should be identical is flawed. If that was the case Ostheer Puma/Panzer IV should have 5 vet level.

If there is a need one can change the price.

When it comes to Soviet M4 it is already has smoke over other Soviet tank and it is also easier to benefit from radio net than USF one.

As for the unit I would rather have cost the same a normal Sherman and adjust stat so that USF unit combined the two unit.

You do remember that the doc M4C Sherman come from has con repair kit. And now that even penals can repair, Your entire army not just the 2 engines can repair the tank, it already has access to versatile repairs as you can you use your front line infantry.

lol, yeah i actually forgot about that. partly because i'm not a huge fan of the conscript repair package as, usually, mainlines are busy enough capping and fighting to make the extra repair tasks kind of a burden. though that of course doesn't take anything away from the fact that it is a valid repair option and frees up engies to go after other duties (e.g. mine laying or sweeping) every now and then.

i'd still think vehicle crew repairs would be nice to have for the M4C as it doesn't bind any of your forces (except the tank itself maybe) for the time it takes to heal up your tank.

The idea that unit shared from two faction should be identical is flawed. If that was the case Ostheer Puma/Panzer IV should have 5 vet level.

If there is a need one can change the price.

When it comes to Soviet M4 it is already has smoke over other Soviet tank and it is also easier to benefit from radio net than USF one.

As for the unit I would rather have cost the same a normal Sherman and adjust stat so that USF unit combined the two unit.

a price adjustment would of course also work. and while performance differences between units shared between factions would always require a bit of suspension of disbelief (did they forget to send the manuals with the tank?), i've always wondered why the price for the USF and Soviet M4C has to remain the same. a bit of flexibility here would probably make it easier to fit it into each faction's roster without becoming either too good or barely usable in one or the other.

As for the secure mode ability, I'd go for either improving cap/decap rate as suggested before, or just allow the hull/coax MGs to fire while it's active. Right now it feels highly situational and apart from maybe blocking a last-minute VP capture attempt I haven't seen anyone make good use of it in a while.

Do you know how much DPS the gun contributes in the mid-late game to the overall DPS (meaning, against a squad of RA 0.6-0.7). I usually feel I want the gun back when infantry is close, especially since your tank needs to move when the infantry pushes in, so capping can often not be finished.

a price adjustment would of course also work. and while performance differences between units shared between factions would always require a bit of suspension of disbelief (did they forget to send the manuals with the tank?), i've always wondered why the price for the USF and Soviet M4C has to remain the same. a bit of flexibility here would probably make it easier to fit it into each faction's roster without becoming either too good or barely usable in one or the other.

I personally would not like it since these performance differences should be communicated to the player somehow. If I get units with the same name, I expect them to work the same. Especially if the unit is supposed to be an import from the other faction.
However Allies often shipped second grade material (or 'first versions' that had issues) to the Soviets with often a lack of spare parts iirc. So some performance difference would actually reflect that point.

I personally would not like it since these performance differences should be communicated to the player somehow. If I get units with the same name, I expect them to work the same. Especially if the unit is supposed to be an import from the other faction.
However Allies often shipped second grade material (or 'first versions' that had issues) to the Soviets with often a lack of spare parts iirc. So some performance difference would actually reflect that point.

yeah that is actually what i've been trying to say. the performance of the same unit in different factions should remain the same, as everything else would be kind of counterintuitive (though i agree the unit quality/spare part availability issue of the lend-lease program could be a suitable explanation for why the soviet M4C might be a tad bit worse than the USF version). however, balance could still be adjusted by the unit's cost and/or build time and i see no good reason why a soviet M4C has to have exactly the same pricetag as a USF one.

Do you know how much DPS the gun contributes in the mid-late game to the overall DPS (meaning, against a squad of RA 0.6-0.7). I usually feel I want the gun back when infantry is close, especially since your tank needs to move when the infantry pushes in, so capping can often not be finished.

I've just run a quick sim of a T-34/76 against Vet 3 PGrens in their default wide formation (that arrow-like template) at 20 m. Using a target size of 0.57, the average total DPS and KPS after 30 s is about 10.6 and 0.130, respectively, with a whopping 76% of the damage and 68% of the kills coming from the hull/coax MGs.

Adding yellow cover to the mix (TS = 0.285, the DPS/KPS drops to 8.3/0.091 and the MGs still contribute about 63% of the damage and 48% of the kills after 30 s.

These numbers would of course change quite drastically depending on distance and if the squad clumps up a bit more, but I'd say the overall contribution of the MGs is quite significant in any case. This of course also assumes the tank is always oriented in a way that the hull MG can fire at all models, which won't likely be the case in a real game.

EDIT: Corrected some of the numbers

When it comes to Soviet M4 it is already has smoke over other Soviet tank and it is also easier to benefit from radio net than USF one.

The advantage that T70 can give Radio Net Bonus to Vet1 M4C is easily more than outweigthed by the mechanism that you will put your vetted light vehicle / light tank crew in your newly build 76mm at USF. Thus having an instant Vet1 - Vet2 medium tank. Since Vet2 is the true powerspike of 76mm, this is way more valuable than having a slight advantage at Radio Net if you kept your T70 alive.

You do remember that the doc M4C Sherman come from has con repair kit. And now that even penals can repair, Your entire army not just the 2 engines can repair the tank, it already has access to versatile repairs as you can you use your front line infantry.

Only that it puts your Cons/Penals at combat/caping downtime and costs you a whole commander ability. Vehicle Crews have such a high value (crew swap, repair, critical repair ability with vet, repair of other tanks/structures, caping...). USF tanks have the advantage of their vehicle crews factored in their price and combat performance (thats the reason USF tanks are less meaty). So granting M4C to soviet army with the removale of vehicle crews at same cost is obviously a reduction of the overall tank performance/power level. The nerf to standard shell RoF (which was mainly aimed at USF mechanized Company) just took it over the top. KV-1 and T34/85 murder infantry and are still doing fine at AT performance, M4C just can't stand up to that since it's stronger HVAP penetration doesn't make up for it lower survivability and worse AI performance.

So either soviet M4C needs a price reduction or some additional tweaking.

One way to buffer the difference to USF version could be the repair ability for M4C which should be paired with removal of Con/Penal repair kits. You could give Land Lease either a further UKF/USF unit or a medicore offmap instead. Alternatively you could just swap the repair kits with the M3 repair truck that is somewhere in the files (you can spawn it at cheatmod). That way you would have another thematically fitting commander ability at Land Lease which acts as a mobile repair unit which can be moved quickly near your M4Cs.