...and are probably the most cost efficient AT unit.
It will be a close battle between Assault Guards and PFs.
Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback
13 Apr 2021, 15:13 PM
#301
Posts: 919
It will be a close battle between Assault Guards and PFs.
13 Apr 2021, 15:24 PM
#302
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
It will be a close battle between Assault Guards and PFs.
I don't think it that close.
6 men with 2 elite bazooka +4 SVT is more cost efficient than 5 men with shreck 3 k98.
13 Apr 2021, 15:59 PM
#303
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
I somehow second this feeling, but I am not sure if it is actually the case.
I think at this point some thoughts about UKF and USF are in order.
What stock options in your opinion do these two factions have to be able to deal with the Elefant?
The way I see it:
USF:
- ATG: If you invest muni, it is alright. Otherwise in general not the greatest counter to the Elefant, at least to to kill it.
- Sherman: Better pen, but overall the higher costs than the T34. Overall I'd rather have a T34 to attack an Elefant than a Sherman.
- Jackson: Better than the SU85 because quick and turreted. Plus AT ammo. Overall TDs are mediocre at best though in countering the Elefant.
- snares: Only on Rifles that need to push up far. Worse than Soviet Conscripts with ourah and snare.
UKF:
- ATG: Slightly better than the ZiS at the job, however also more easily wiped.
- Crommwell: Same situation as with the T34, although with hunt and war speed better than the Sherman.
- Firefly: Turreted and with stun, but slow so it can't flank. Usable for the stun.
- snares: worst of the bunch.
I think Soviets have the hardest time in killing the Elefant, but the easiest in mitigating it by snaring and forcing longer repairs. This is okay in the beginning, but the problem will build up with a vetting Elefant.
Instead of ramming the Elefant with a T34, I went to just driving into it. This makes the Elefant jerk around randomly and show rear armor to the front line while being unable to retreat and snarable. My T34 can still fire for the time it is alive and this allows my SUs to participate as well.
It is still cheesy AF and if possible should be designed differently.
In the long game, the best strategy in my eyes is to bleed the infantry first, so the Elefant will have phases of low support. If I fail to do that, I usually fail to kill the Elefant.
Both medium tanks have on demand smoke.
Both TD are turreted with abilities to increase DPS.
RET with disabling smokes n Zooks or RE with snare + Piats are way easier to field, specially late game, than Penals with PTRS.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
13 Apr 2021, 16:35 PM
#304
Posts: 919
I don't think it that close.
6 men with 2 elite bazooka +4 SVT is more cost efficient than 5 men with shreck 3 k98.
You don't said "the most cost efficient allround unit", you said "the most cost efficient AT unit". PFs have higher AT alpha damage and higher AT DPS too if you factor in their higher penetration. In addition their vet1 ability to spot with flares comes in very handy. Assault Guards wil be better at AI to make up for that. Both units are pretty cost efficient overall.
13 Apr 2021, 16:45 PM
#305
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
You don't said "the most cost efficient allround unit", you said "the most cost efficient AT unit". PFs have higher AT alpha damage and higher AT DPS too if you factor in their higher penetration. In addition their vet1 ability to spot with flares comes in very handy. Assault Guards wil be better at AI to make up for that. Both units are pretty cost efficient overall.
It not that that AI that makes the difference it is extra model. 6 men can stand take more punishment before the have to retreat.
The AI is extra bonus since AG can actually fight infatry and have the grenade barrage.
13 Apr 2021, 17:05 PM
#306
Posts: 772
I find that hard to believe. If you really did, you would've noticed that the changes only nerfed the IL-2 rocket strafe's damage from 80-90% health to the rear of an Elefant to 70-80% on average (though more against the front armor), and I assume you wouldn't call this "drastically nerfed". The rockets have a high amount of deflection damage. The penetration nerf only took the edge off.
The issue is that 80 pen is not enough for ability to be reliable. Bump it to at least to 110, or reduce the price accordingly, because now you might as well don't even angle it towards the rear if the target is heavier then P4/panther. Just from the screenshot I'd say that its effectiveness was hacked by at least 1/4 against heavy targets. I get the nerf, but this is way too much.
13 Apr 2021, 17:49 PM
#307
Posts: 5279
The issue is that 80 pen is not enough for ability to be reliable. Bump it to at least to 110, or reduce the price accordingly, because now you might as well don't even angle it towards the rear if the target is heavier then P4/panther. Just from the screenshot I'd say that its effectiveness was hacked by at least 1/4 against heavy targets. I get the nerf, but this is way too much.
My issue is that if you look at live, the elefants are constantly buggered. Look at the beta and the range is from one hit to death and over half health. That's ALOT of RNG for lining up perfectly and hitting the ass armour...
Some off maps are being tuned to remove RNG from things like destroying howitzer and here we are for some unknown reason deciding that more RNG even on a perfectly line up strike is the best way to
If they want to reduce its effectiveness by nearly a half, as is clearly a possibility by the test images shown, reduce the damage by half and the cost accordingly. Don't make it rely entirely on a dice roll and have the soviet player pay for the CHANCE it could pretend it want nerfed.
Consistency should be the goal here not wild amounts of randomness even when used in ideal conditions and lined up perfectly
#stalinwept
13 Apr 2021, 18:08 PM
#308
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I am not sure why the focus of rocket run is the Elefant. The commander seems to in low pick rate in 3vs3 and 4vs4 compared to 1vs1 2vs2.
Second pick at 1vs1/2vs2 falling to six pick at 3vs3 and ninth at 4vs4
Second pick at 1vs1/2vs2 falling to six pick at 3vs3 and ninth at 4vs4
13 Apr 2021, 20:51 PM
#312
Posts: 786 | Subs: 1
Soviet Industry Tactics
Vehicle Crew Repairs replaced with Recon Overflight
Allied Supply Drop replaced with ZIS 6 Supply Truck
the industry tactics doctrine is supposed to let SOV get tanks faster, and it is easily countered. Why remove it?
possibly adding this ability to other commanders that wouldn't mind it would be nice, or reworking the ability so you don't actually have to gamble on the airplane ever arriving.
Vehicle Crew Repairs replaced with Recon Overflight
Allied Supply Drop replaced with ZIS 6 Supply Truck
the industry tactics doctrine is supposed to let SOV get tanks faster, and it is easily countered. Why remove it?
possibly adding this ability to other commanders that wouldn't mind it would be nice, or reworking the ability so you don't actually have to gamble on the airplane ever arriving.
the coh2.org forum experience:
13 Apr 2021, 21:15 PM
#313
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Soviet Industry Tactics
Vehicle Crew Repairs replaced with Recon Overflight
Allied Supply Drop replaced with ZIS 6 Supply Truck
the industry tactics doctrine is supposed to let SOV get tanks faster, and it is easily countered. Why remove it?
possibly adding this ability to other commanders that wouldn't mind it would be nice, or reworking the ability so you don't actually have to gamble on the airplane ever arriving.
Because there is already a repair ability within the doctrine and 2 out of 5 slots being repairs isn't really, well, good.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
13 Apr 2021, 21:45 PM
#314
Posts: 133
Soviet Industry Tactics
Vehicle Crew Repairs replaced with Recon Overflight
Allied Supply Drop replaced with ZIS 6 Supply Truck
the industry tactics doctrine is supposed to let SOV get tanks faster, and it is easily countered. Why remove it?
possibly adding this ability to other commanders that wouldn't mind it would be nice, or reworking the ability so you don't actually have to gamble on the airplane ever arriving.
I think you answered your own question in that it was to easily countered. Essentially you could maybe use the air drop 1 time and once the enemy got any AA out it became useless. The ZiS truck still let's you rush out armor if you can put in on a fuel point. And the repair station just completely outclassed the infantry repair stuff so literally anything is an improvement in that slot.
14 Apr 2021, 00:51 AM
#315
Posts: 919
Soviet Industry Tactics
Vehicle Crew Repairs replaced with Recon Overflight
Allied Supply Drop replaced with ZIS 6 Supply Truck
Both changes are a straight buff.
14 Apr 2021, 03:25 AM
#316
Posts: 1794
I am not sure why the focus of rocket run is the Elefant. The commander seems to in low pick rate in 3vs3 and 4vs4 compared to 1vs1 2vs2.
Second pick at 1vs1/2vs2 falling to six pick at 3vs3 and ninth at 4vs4
elefant is pure AT and slow rof, so even in 2v2, allies can pretty much ignore it.
i only go elefant if up against ISU or KV doctrine.
14 Apr 2021, 10:12 AM
#317
Posts: 112
I muted katukov.
Industry got buffs, thats obivous.
But still I dont like recon. I prefer spy net.
So Soviet industry would be better wiht SPy net.
And kv2 is total garbage, I want this to be changed to mark vehicle.
Kv1 needs straight out buffs
\
Soviet industry is too weak against infantry blobs. The kv1 and kv2 are not blob killers but prey to blobs.
Industry got buffs, thats obivous.
But still I dont like recon. I prefer spy net.
So Soviet industry would be better wiht SPy net.
And kv2 is total garbage, I want this to be changed to mark vehicle.
Kv1 needs straight out buffs
\
Soviet industry is too weak against infantry blobs. The kv1 and kv2 are not blob killers but prey to blobs.
14 Apr 2021, 10:22 AM
#318
Posts: 112
also why dont partisans already come upgraded with PPSH?????
why do u make this unit so expensive?
They are completely useless if they dont come out strong immidiately,. Thats the whole point of using them.
why do u make this unit so expensive?
They are completely useless if they dont come out strong immidiately,. Thats the whole point of using them.
14 Apr 2021, 14:08 PM
#319
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
Just wanted to bring up the topic of AT overwatch. Not about the strength/balance, but rather the design.
As Blackdream said in another thread, this is ability shoots pinpoint accurately on every visible tank.
I am not arguing for realism in CoH2, but some authenticity should be in order. Out of all abilities, this is one of the worst offenders. It just doesn't make any sense. This ability feels like a guided laser shooting from space. And if you are visible for longer, it comes down at a huge ROF. And just by driving all of them miss as well which looks stupid as hell.
Is there a possibility to make it an area-bound AT artillery that forces vehicles to move? Bigger explosions, but with scatter.
Or targeted at a specific vehicle, which will then be bombarded with AT shells for as long as it is visible.
Or random area bombardment with an AT strafing plane.
Just something that makes a bit more "sense". Balance wise I think it is mostly fine, although it performs VERY good in team games because there are always enemy vehicles visible.
As Blackdream said in another thread, this is ability shoots pinpoint accurately on every visible tank.
I am not arguing for realism in CoH2, but some authenticity should be in order. Out of all abilities, this is one of the worst offenders. It just doesn't make any sense. This ability feels like a guided laser shooting from space. And if you are visible for longer, it comes down at a huge ROF. And just by driving all of them miss as well which looks stupid as hell.
Is there a possibility to make it an area-bound AT artillery that forces vehicles to move? Bigger explosions, but with scatter.
Or targeted at a specific vehicle, which will then be bombarded with AT shells for as long as it is visible.
Or random area bombardment with an AT strafing plane.
Just something that makes a bit more "sense". Balance wise I think it is mostly fine, although it performs VERY good in team games because there are always enemy vehicles visible.
14 Apr 2021, 15:58 PM
#320
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
152mm Howitzer Strike (new)
The ability scatter allot and result are very RNG. I have seen it almost take out a full health truck or do very little against it.
The ability scatter allot and result are very RNG. I have seen it almost take out a full health truck or do very little against it.
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