Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

Solid changes but i dont like fortification doctrine buff that commander is already very strong in team games
cheaper off map and new abiliy will make this commander even more cancerous

Yeah, search yourself discussions and modders insight from the time it was implemented for the first time.
Literally all of "documentation" you are looking for is here on .org in previous threads.

You are providing a controversial claim and need to provide a source or stop trolling.

Anyway, the balance team will decide if a doctorinal 15 fuel vehicle have to be defeated by a now 5-fuel price tag non-tech anti-infantry T0 carrier.

You are providing a controversial claim and need to provide a source or stop trolling.

Anyway, the balance team will decide if a doctorinal 15 fuel vehicle have to be defeated by a now 5-fuel price tag non-tech anti-infantry T0 carrier.

What controversial claim?
You are arguing that utility vehicle that is supposed to function as light fire support and frontline healing and then limited reconnesainse and supply cache is supposed to fight upgraded frontline vehicle.

You're the one with controversial claim to prove, what exactly in very low armor and lack of any penetration what so ever on the unit makes you believe its supposed to fight vehicles efficiently, especially frontally against a vehicle with twice the firepower and armor?

That's like complaining that centaur loses to StuG in frontal slugfest.

What controversial claim?
You are arguing that utility vehicle that is supposed to function as light fire support and frontline healing and then limited reconnesainse and supply cache is supposed to fight upgraded frontline vehicle.

You're the one with controversial claim to prove, what exactly in very low armor and lack of any penetration what so ever on the unit makes you believe its supposed to fight vehicles efficiently, especially frontally against a vehicle with twice the firepower and armor?

That's like complaining that centaur loses to StuG in frontal slugfest.

Mate I am talking about 221. 223 is a utility vehicle. Do you know about the utilities of UC and 221 without its upgrade? Uc has self repair and can function as an infantry carrier, while the only utility of the 221 is healing drop, which can be also dropped by spios. So, without the 223 upgrade, 221 is doctorinal, costs 15 fuel and has worse AI than 5fuel 60muni UC, also gets beaten by UC in a direct engagement.

And 221 is infantry healing supporting vehicle that isn't supposed to fight alone and most certainly isn't supposed to fight vehicles, because it does not have a singular stat that would allow it to fight against anything stronger then kubel or unupgraded dodge, even its shared vet screams that.

Its not a hard concept to comprehend.
I have no idea why your brain is in full Festung order mode against it.

Shared veterancy has nothing to do with with micro light fights performance.

Even m3A3 now has shared veterancy and it easily beat kubel

They don't really tie infantry down that well lategame, is the issue. They're stuck between being a "meatshield" and a "Damage-dealer" infantry unit, due to having been handed the STG upgrade at one point in balance, and being expected to be a (very temporary) shock infantry. Their veterancy is weak, which makes their survivability (and so their efficiency) fairly garbage lategame relative to other units, but their STGs do not scale well either, having a spike when they're upgraded, and steeply dropping down from there.

I've suggested multiple times that Volks ought to lean far more heavily into the "tarpit" design, losing their STG upgrades (and therefore their powerspike) in exchange for slightly improved (defensive, primarily) veterancy, and a "mobilise reserves" styled upgrade.

Obers/JLI/Fallschirmjager (and to a lesser extent, mostly in the early game; Sturms) are obviously the infantry that should be doing the damage for OKW, Volks shouldnt have their damage output buffed, certainly not in the lategame, but what they /should/ be is a more utilitarian meatshield, in the same design space as Conscripts.

I agree with this. I suggested to give some more rec acc and have their self heal back to vet 3. With them loosing their stg their defensive stats need more increase then i suggested indeed. But again i like your points.

It is the case, because modders balanced it like that.

Cool, still irrelevant though.

It is the case, because if you want to kill a vehicle, there already is a unit in T0 for that.

This would be meaningful if the 221 were a t0 unit, but it isnt; it comes at tier 1, just like the British 6 pounder, Sniper, and AEC. The brit has access to similar AT options to OKW at the 221 timing, the fact the Rak comes at tier 0 has absolutely no bearing on the 221/3 vs the UC.

It is the case, because combat is NOT units primary role.

Combat is the primary role of the 221, and honestly even the 223. The 221 gains armour with the 223 upgrade, if it's "Primary role" was to just be a cache, why would its combat performance improve with the upgrade, and why are the first three levels of veterancy for the unit focused around making it more combat-capable?

Lockdown is what the 221/3 transitions into after the Light Vehicle phase ends, it isnt it's "primary purpose", as building a 221, immediately turning it into a 223, and then immediately locking down a sector is not an efficient use of the unit.

It is the case, because it is not meant to go against any vehicle unless it gets a jump from favorable position.

But the UC is?

I don't know what you struggle with here so much.
Its base armor was increased, because it didn't do good enough job against its intended target-infantry and that's it.

I don't know how to tell you its not supposed to fight vehicles in a way that you would understand if you don't get it directly.

I do hope you realise that just because you say something is true, this doesn't actually make it the case? The UC's intended targets are similarly infantry, It's an AI vehicle primarily, which is rather supported by the fact it can upgrade into a flamethrower. It has two AI upgrade paths.

Yeah, search yourself discussions and modders insight from the time it was implemented for the first time.
Literally all of "documentation" you are looking for is here on .org in previous threads.

Was this before or after the multiple changes to Brits to improve their performance vs light/any vehicles? (AT nade on REs, Not having to choose betweeen the AEC and Bofors, etc)

Cool, still irrelevant though.

"Intended role of a unit as designed and balanced around by people responsible for it is irrelevant"

Ok.

This would be meaningful if the 221 were a t0 unit, but it isnt; it comes at tier 1, just like the British 6 pounder, Sniper, and AEC. The brit has access to similar AT options to OKW at the 221 timing, the fact the Rak comes at tier 0 has absolutely no bearing on the 221/3 vs the UC.

No, it does not. Not even close.

Combat is the primary role of the 221, and honestly even the 223. The 221 gains armour with the 223 upgrade, if it's "Primary role" was to just be a cache, why would its combat performance improve with the upgrade, and why are the first three levels of veterancy for the unit focused around making it more combat-capable?

No, it is not. Healing on field and assisting infantry against other infantry in cover is.

Lockdown is what the 221/3 transitions into after the Light Vehicle phase ends, it isnt it's "primary purpose", as building a 221, immediately turning it into a 223, and then immediately locking down a sector is not an efficient use of the unit.

But the UC is?

Yes. Its very much supposed to fight against anything below 222.
It has stats to do just that and upgrade that makes it even better.
It also does not provide any utility, its not needed as a transport and not a single soul ever uses it as such and it loses that ability when upgraded.
Contrary to ost, UKF does not have long range "fausts" and contrary to OKW, USF does not have T0 ATG.

I do hope you realise that just because you say something is true, this doesn't actually make it the case? The UC's intended targets are similarly infantry, It's an AI vehicle primarily, which is rather supported by the fact it can upgrade into a flamethrower. It has two AI upgrade paths.

Yes.
UCs primary role is fighting infantry.
Its secondary is to keep axis ultra lights away from tommies, because otherwise its free, uncounterable attrition damage.

And if you still have any doubts about 221 role, go ask Sander or Miragefla.

"Intended role of a unit as designed and balanced around by people responsible for it is irrelevant"

Ok.

We're still at the stage where you're not actually answering my argument, is the thing. Why does the UC need to be able to defeat the more expensive, doctrinal 221, that arrives on the field significantly later?

Please stop hiding behind "Well it's designed that way" and let me know why you believe that the UC currently needs to be able to fight and win against doctrinal Axis lights, that arrive far later (And for much more fuel) than the UC?

No, it does not. Not even close.

Elaborate. The 221 requires that you build your first techtruck, and then build your scout car. You are investing the same fuel to get your 221 as UKF would to reach tier 1.

No, it is not. Healing on field and assisting infantry against other infantry in cover is.

"Assisting infantry against other infantry in cover" isnt combat duty? This really is reaching. How do you describe what the UC does against infantry?

Yes. Its very much supposed to fight against anything below 222.
It has stats to do just that and upgrade that makes it even better.

Contrary to ost, UKF does not have long range "fausts" and contrary to OKW, USF does not have T0 ATG.

Ostheer isnt relevant, we're talking specifically about OKW and the 221. OKW snares come at the same timing as Brit snares, and by the time the 221 is able to hit the field, UKF are able to build their ATG. You spend, at minimum, 30 fuel to be able to field a 221.

Also, again, a tier 0 ATG is not a meaningful thing to point at given that the 221 is not a tier 0 unit. What sort of lunatic builds a Raketen immediately to counter an UC, anyway? That isnt an efficient use of your time nor resources, especially with how badly your infantry will get bullied by the UKF player when you're an AI squad down.

It also does not provide any utility, its not needed as a transport and not a single soul ever uses it as such and it loses that ability when upgraded.

Other than improved Stealth Detection, Transportation (Which is an Utility, even if you'd like to badly insist it isnt for your argument to be valid) and suppression (When upgraded), I guess?

Yes.
UCs primary role is fighting infantry.
Its secondary is to keep axis ultra lights away from tommies, because otherwise its free, uncounterable attrition damage.

The ultra-light 221 that doesn't come at tier 0, you mean?

The argument works against the Kubel. Which other Axis ultralights are you concerned about, that come before UKF have access to their ATG, Snares, and AEC?

At what point in the game does the 221 have a window of usefulness against UKF?

And if you still have any doubts about 221 role, go ask Sander or Miragefla.

Go ahead, ask them, rather than trying to speak for them.

mate I asked for a reference and you just defining the game the way you want.
Anyway, I have to start a charity to raise funds to buy a copy of COH2 for you. Without playing the game, you cant differentiate between units.

I'm at least 17% convinced you are capable of putting "221" and "sander" into google yourself.
If you do you'll find a quote about helping vs infantry, hunting snipers and assisting with LVs, not destroying them frontally.

Also, from the way you've written this post, didn't you confused 221(AI only) with 222(AI and AT) by a chance?

I'm at least 17% convinced you are capable of putting "221" and "sander" into google yourself.
If you do you'll find a quote about helping vs infantry, hunting snipers and assisting with LVs, not destroying them frontally.

Also, from the way you've written this post, didn't you confused 221(AI only) with 222(AI and AT) by a chance?

Don't worry mate, at least I am playing the game already
You have to show me a sentence that Sander writes "221 must be defeated by the Vickers UC", as you already mentioned. Otherwise, I have nothing to discuss with a troll.

Don't worry mate, at least I am playing the game already
You have to show me a sentence that Sander writes "221 must be defeated by the Vickers UC", as you already mentioned. Otherwise, I have nothing to discuss with a troll.

I've asked multiple times, what makes you think comparing stats of 221 and UC that 221 should stand any chance? I've already said it will win when it flanks.
You haven't said a single reason why it should win frontally or even compete.
I've told you how to find the quote.
If you're too lazy to do research, don't discuss the topic and let adults talk.

Honestly, at this point they should turn it into a cool voiceline button for 0 munitions.
When you need to comeback/clutch a game you press a button and hear the lines "Bring them death, bring them destruction, show them no mercy"
More useful and less situational than what it ever was anyway

That would be funny..lol. But your humour does not sway me from my point - do you agree or disagree with the statement that adding a 'counter' to radio silence is contradictory from a gameplay and thematic perspective?