Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

With how expensive Radio Silence has become, I don't think it will ever see any meaningful use. Now matter how cool the concept sounds the big deal is inevitably the speed boost, but if you are being engaged you will inevitably lose that bonus.
The doctrine in general is being killed, the flare locked behind a 200 fuel Panther is the main cause but I think that was long overdue since point and click recon is bad. The problem is that the rest of the commander is hardly worth picking it.
The commander has also too much muni sinks already. A 250/1 halftrack call in would be a lot more helpful in early game and help differentiate the commander
Regardless I think the idea of Radio Silence should be ditched, and the ability replaced.

On a sidenote, while this may not apply for teamgames, I think that the idea of a Command Panther itself doesn't work, and the aura and target ability should have been removed, the vehicle turned into a Panther Ace, kinda similar to Tiger Ace, with simply more sight, mobility and flare, the reasons are

1) OKW has no cheap tier 3 vehicles with lower popcap.

2) It's not a command Panzer IV, so it costs more and has higher pocap itself, meaning it won't have more than 1 Panzer IV to benefit from the aura.

3) 25% extra damage rarely means anything, it's 200 instead of 160. Similar to Jagdpanzer IV first strike out of camouflage bonus, it hardly ever does any difference at all, but here it's a munition ability

So previously there was some discussion on possibly buffing the SDKFZ 221 to make it a more useful vehicle. I think there were some reasonable points on both sides but I personally agree more that any major buffs to the vehicle's timing to power could be problematic when coming alongside the power spike OKW has in the mid game. However, I also agree the vehicle feels very meh even going just a minute or two past when it comes out. I think a buff could help it just needs to be the right one.

My suggestion is to possibly look into reworking the vet for this unit in order to make it more useful after it's combat abilities fall off.
This link has the current vet for the 221 and I want to propose some changes to it. I think the most notable thing is the AT mine buried so far in vet it may as well not exist. I want to redo the vet and shuffle things around.


Vet 1 - Unlocks the "Defensive Smoke" ability.
+10% accuracy.
-11,1% received accuracy.

Vet 2 - +30 additional health points.
+30% accuracy.

Vet 3 - Unlocks the "Riegel 43 Anti-Tank Mine" ability.

Vet 4 - +20% maximum speed.
+20% rotation speed.
+20% ac/de-celeration.
+30% sight radius.

Vet 5 - -25% received damage while in "Lockdown Mode".
+4 armor

So these changes would do a couple things overall.
Vet 1 remains unchanged
Vet 2 would now give a notably health boost to make the 221 more resilient (it would have 270 health compared to 240)
Vet 3 unlocks the AT mine making it more realistic to be able to use this ability.
Vet 4 essentially got the other buffs that were removed from vet 2 and 3
Vet 5 would now make the 221 immune to small arms fire making it much more bulky and harder to kill as a reward for keeping it alive to vet all the way up.

In terms of new stuff for the vet you have a additional 10 health points added on and the added armor at vet 5. Otherwise this is just swapping around the various vet bonuses to activate in I would say is a more beneficial and useful way. Making it so at vet 3 the 221 gets the AT mine it sets a good point where the 221 can become a more support built vehicle as it plants mines and locks down areas as a 223.

I think this would be a good way overall to buff the 221 while not affecting that much of it's early timing while still making it better and worthwhile to keep around even later into the game.

If a change like this is done I also hope we could see the 221 go into the Scavenge doctrine also in place of infiltration grenades. I think the 221 fits very well there alongside the new volk repair kits and the whole theme of extra resources. The 223 would be a good way help rush out an ostwind, save munitions for a big 105mm strike, or even as a resource sink being able to plant those AT mines.

So previously there was some discussion on possibly buffing the SDKFZ 221 to make it a more useful vehicle. I think there were some reasonable points on both sides but I personally agree more that any major buffs to the vehicle's timing to power could be problematic when coming alongside the power spike OKW has in the mid game. However, I also agree the vehicle feels very meh even going just a minute or two past when it comes out. I think a buff could help it just needs to be the right one.

My suggestion is to possibly look into reworking the vet for this unit in order to make it more useful after it's combat abilities fall off.
This link has the current vet for the 221 and I want to propose some changes to it. I think the most notable thing is the AT mine buried so far in vet it may as well not exist. I want to redo the vet and shuffle things around.


Vet 1 - Unlocks the "Defensive Smoke" ability.
+10% accuracy.
-11,1% received accuracy.

Vet 2 - +30 additional health points.
+30% accuracy.

Vet 3 - Unlocks the "Riegel 43 Anti-Tank Mine" ability.

Vet 4 - +20% maximum speed.
+20% rotation speed.
+20% ac/de-celeration.
+30% sight radius.

Vet 5 - -25% received damage while in "Lockdown Mode".
+4 armor

So these changes would do a couple things overall.
Vet 1 remains unchanged
Vet 2 would now give a notably health boost to make the 221 more resilient (it would have 270 health compared to 240)
Vet 3 unlocks the AT mine making it more realistic to be able to use this ability.
Vet 4 essentially got the other buffs that were removed from vet 2 and 3
Vet 5 would now make the 221 immune to small arms fire making it much more bulky and harder to kill as a reward for keeping it alive to vet all the way up.

In terms of new stuff for the vet you have a additional 10 health points added on and the added armor at vet 5. Otherwise this is just swapping around the various vet bonuses to activate in I would say is a more beneficial and useful way. Making it so at vet 3 the 221 gets the AT mine it sets a good point where the 221 can become a more support built vehicle as it plants mines and locks down areas as a 223.

I think this would be a good way overall to buff the 221 while not affecting that much of it's early timing while still making it better and worthwhile to keep around even later into the game.

If a change like this is done I also hope we could see the 221 go into the Scavenge doctrine also in place of infiltration grenades. I think the 221 fits very well there alongside the new volk repair kits and the whole theme of extra resources. The 223 would be a good way help rush out an ostwind, save munitions for a big 105mm strike, or even as a resource sink being able to plant those AT mines.

I see the intent here. This may work, and I think that veterancy should be looked at, but I think there's a design issue within the unit.
See, when you get the 221, you get the chance to upgrade it for 15 more fuel to a 223.
You get additional armor, health signal relay and lockdown mode. The problem is that when you upgrade it to a 223 you spend quite a lot of fuel because of the chance to have the car double any sector income. This is a disincentive to using it as combat unit, because the unit doesn't have enough dps potency to pay back the resource increase it would grant by sitting in a sector.

What I proposed is to split the upgrade in 2. The first one, the radio set, costs 5 fuel and grants the armor and health bonus, as well as radio relay. The second, call it "logistic car" for example, would cost 10 fuel, is a further upgrade that adds the lockdown ability. This would allow who wants to use the 221/223 offensively and try to reach Riegel mines a chance to do so without fully paying an exorbitant price. 20 fuel for a 223 without lockdown mode after the first truck set up would keep it in line for timing and cost with similar light vehicles, the m20 for example.

I see the intent here. This may work, and I think that veterancy should be looked at, but I think there's a design issue within the unit.
See, when you get the 221, you get the chance to upgrade it for 15 more fuel to a 223.
You get additional armor, health signal relay and lockdown mode. The problem is that when you upgrade it to a 223 you spend quite a lot of fuel because of the chance to have the car double any sector income. This is a disincentive to using it as combat unit, because the unit doesn't have enough dps potency to pay back the resource increase it would grant by sitting in a sector.

What I proposed is to split the upgrade in 2. The first one, the radio set, costs 5 fuel and grants the armor and health bonus, as well as radio relay. The second, call it "logistic car" for example, would cost 10 fuel, is a further upgrade that adds the lockdown ability. This would allow who wants to use the 221/223 offensively and try to reach Riegel mines a chance to do so without fully paying an exorbitant price. 20 fuel for a 223 without lockdown mode after the first truck set up would keep it in line for timing and cost with similar light vehicles, the m20 for example.

Or one can simply make the separate vehicles and balance them separately...

I see the intent here. This may work, and I think that veterancy should be looked at, but I think there's a design issue within the unit.
See, when you get the 221, you get the chance to upgrade it for 15 more fuel to a 223.
You get additional armor, health signal relay and lockdown mode. The problem is that when you upgrade it to a 223 you spend quite a lot of fuel because of the chance to have the car double any sector income. This is a disincentive to using it as combat unit, because the unit doesn't have enough dps potency to pay back the resource increase it would grant by sitting in a sector.

What I proposed is to split the upgrade in 2. The first one, the radio set, costs 5 fuel and grants the armor and health bonus, as well as radio relay. The second, call it "logistic car" for example, would cost 10 fuel, is a further upgrade that adds the lockdown ability. This would allow who wants to use the 221/223 offensively and try to reach Riegel mines a chance to do so without fully paying an exorbitant price. 20 fuel for a 223 without lockdown mode after the first truck set up would keep it in line for timing and cost with similar light vehicles, the m20 for example.

The 221 upgrade pays for itself in 2 minutes (if locked down on a fuel point) and in slightly more then 4 minutes you can get your worth from 221. 5 fuel is way too low. Also such units with similar timing have very short lifespan, so having access to this sort of upgrade is pretty neat. So if you don't like the upgrade - don't spend your resources on it. Also the unit is fine. Great scouting vehicle and provides a decent power spike in already a pretty good doctrine.

Elite Armored is the only doctrine that can make out of KT a meta heavy tank and a good tank destroyer out of JP4. Having 65 sight (not focused, like su-85) on heavy tank (with spearhead) + heat shells that deal 312 dmg is nothing to sneeze at.

Also such units with similar timing have very short lifespan, so having access to this sort of upgrade is pretty neat. So if you don't like the upgrade - don't spend your resources on it. Also the unit is fine. Great scouting vehicle and provides a decent power spike in already a pretty good doctrine.

The 223 combat value is lower than the M20, while the timing, health and armor are identical. Both have defensive smoke and increased sight, but the m20 has the mine already avaiable, so 5 fuel for the armor and health upgrade match perfectly other similar units while the 223 would still be a little overpriced

The 223 combat value is lower than the M20, while the timing, health and armor are identical.

pull up the numbers with starting recourses and tech pls. Also this is very misleading since 221 has faster timing...

i like the idea to move the riegel mine to vet 3 so it has an actual chance to see some use at least every once in a while. otherwise the unit is fine... a bit too pricey for its combat performance but able to make more than up for it resource-wise later on.

pull up the numbers with starting recourses and tech pls.

USF starts with 10 fuel more
Mechanized is 60 fuel, Battlegroup is 45 fuel while any usf tech path is 55 fuel

Also this is very misleading since 221 has faster timing...

Yes, but not 223, which arrives exactly at the same time m20 arrives
221 is outdps'd by tier 0 scout cars despite not being tier 0 and being the most expensive micro light with a 15 fuel cost

Why does the 221/223 gain received accuracy with vet, and especially such a weird value?
It needs to run from any AT vehicle anyway and small arms won't miss it.

Why does the 221/223 gain received accuracy with vet, and especially such a weird value?
It needs to run from any AT vehicle anyway and small arms won't miss it.

The 251 has something similar
I don't get the purpose of it. AT guns are hardly going to miss it anyway with it

Why does the 221/223 gain received accuracy with vet, and especially such a weird value?
It needs to run from any AT vehicle anyway and small arms won't miss it.

It just got copied over from the 222's vet. No idea why that has -11,1% instead of -10%.
But it reduces target size from 18 to 16, which does help against AT sources.

It just got copied over from the 222's vet. No idea why that has -11,1% instead of -10%.
But it reduces target size from 18 to 16, which does help against AT sources.

I see it now. The 11,1% bring it down to almost exactly a size of 16, otherwise it would be 16,2.

Well, I'd estimate that the unit will survive two ATG shots between 5-10% more often than without the target size buff. I doubt though that it makes the unit itself that much stronger. Since it dies with the second shot, you will always retreat as soon as you see an ATG.

This target size reduction does not have the same effect as with medium target size reduction for example. Those need to run through 4 hit rolls, making the effect overall much larger and not as binary. The 221/223 takes two shots, making it die quite quickly and you will probably only build one unit per match. This makes these outcome almost binary. What I basically mean is: While the unit will be improved over multiple of games, there will probably not be enough RNG checks in a specific, single game to really make a really noticable difference. Something that a player would count on. Your unit will just randomly survive the second shot slightly more frequently.

I want to throw my hat in as someone who actually likes the theme of Elite Armor, but finds the commander to be a mess. (2v2+ perspective)

Ideally elite armor should encourage you to go Mechanized HQ because you get Heat rounds and you get Emergency Repairs, plus I mean it's called Elite Armor.

The issues with this commander are at the start. The 221 is probably the definition of busted and bloated.

221/223

A. As an Assault unit - Against soviets it's terrible, against a UKF that goes UC it's terrible, but if your opponent is USF/doesn't go UC it's busted as all hell when it comes out. OKW already has strong first engagement capabilities so then you add this onto the aftermath and it just becomes ridiculous because snares aren't unlocked or given to the allied factions (excluding soviets) for so long. It loses steam shortly after that but dumb bleed pressure against certain factions is dumb. Afterwards it loses any assault capabilities and becomes more of a support unit.

B. As a Support Unit - This thing is bloated and weird. If I want to go Mechanized going the 221 delays any sort of Luches play significantly and you can't afford to delay the Luches cuz you compete with a stuart or AEC. Big issue you suffer when going Mechanized is that you don't have medics. So the 221 comes with medkits, but the cost of the 221 and a med bunker isn't even all that much different (a 20 fuel difference) and you are going to build a med bunker anyway if you want LEIGS/a KT later. I like the scouting capabilities, but then that conflicts with the Tank Commander upgrade role.

Tank Commander

I don't understand the point of this upgrade. It gives a little more sight range (Not much) but you lose out on an important LMG upgrade. Then, you get what should be a good Artillery call in. Thing takes forever to land and doesn't drop as much as you'd hope.

HEAT Rounds

These are okayish? You'd want to use them on a P4 since the Pen on them aren't great at all or even a Puma. Thing is, the dmg boost is negligible against everything other then a heavy tank. So it just sort of feels underwhelming. The Jackson heat rounds are valuable because of its base high pen mixed with fighting extremely heavy armor. Plus I think it buffs the Jacksons accuracy?

Suggestions

On this commander despite spending munitions I find myself floating constantly because I don't have a call in to use, that's the role the Tank Commander SHOULD fill. I'd like the idea that he can use various munition call ins that are worthwhile, for starters his artillery call in needs to come down way faster. I'd like it if he just gets the P4 to gain veterancy faster, considering he's sacrificing an LMG. Then when it vets up fast he would be giving the P4 the increased sight range.

The 221 I'd like to be given the choice of early shock unit vs support unit. Against soviets being a shock unit is terrible, but being a support unit would be great. Something like costing 5-10 fuel but it doesn't have a main gun on it initially but has sight/medkits and facilitates getting a luchs/puma. If you wanted to use it as a shock, then once you have a converted headquarters you can upgrade it for some extra fuel to be a baby 222. That way if you go med HQ you can have a light vehicle and if you go Mechanized you can have medkits. Coming out at 3-4 minutes is just too insane even if it's squishy because you can just abuse it against certain factions and it's dumb.

Heat rounds, I'm not sure. It just doesn't feel like it's worth activating but I find myself loving the Jacksons Hvap rounds. Perhaps just increasing it's pen to 40% but no damage boost because if you go Luchs/puma you'd probably end up at most getting a P4. You'd have P4's contending with late game armor like Comets/Churchills so having more Pen is nice. The damage boost is utterly irrelevant at 208(160) dmg unless they didn't repair their tank to full prior.

Other then that emergency repairs is great, and the sturmtiger is getting somewhat fixed.

USF starts with 10 fuel more
Mechanized is 60 fuel, Battlegroup is 45 fuel while any usf tech path is 55 fuel

Yes, but not 223, which arrives exactly at the same time m20 arrives
221 is outdps'd by tier 0 scout cars despite not being tier 0 and being the most expensive micro light with a 15 fuel cost

You don't need Battlegroup for 221, you need supply truck for it, not fully deployed Headquarters. Pretty much it is available to build with incendiary nade on Volks.

10 starting fuel, 15F for truck and another 15f for 221. So that is 5f + 15f + 15f for 223 upgrade (optional).



USF starts with 20f. 35f for Lt + 20f for tech + 20f for M20. So that is 15f + 20f + 20f = 55f for M20 vs 5f + 15f = 20f for 221. You can even have sdkfz 223 20f earlier then M20.

If 221 was available with HQ it would have been completely pointless, because it would be a soviet m3 clowncar class of vehicle with sdkfz 222 timing

You don't need Battlegroup for 221, you need supply truck for it

But you need it for the 223, which is the vehicle that should be compared to the m20

The problem of HEAT rounds is that it should have custom stats for each vehicle. Its damage buff is pointless for mediums against mediums but very good on the puma because it grants 160 damage per shot, and on the King Tiger

Panzer Commander is very useful, and I think the offmap is great. It can even destroy an emplacement if brace is on cooldown or abandoned team weapons if I can't keep the tank stationary and forces every team weapon to move or lose. It also grants +10 sight and +10 accuracy

But you need it for the 223, which is the vehicle that should be compared to the m20

Haha, that is embarrassing, haven't played OKW for a long time, kind of forgot about it (oops).

Still pintle mg has higher ~40% more dps then m20's, although the range is smaller (35 vs 40). From my perspective it is way easier to get value out of it then from m20, since 221 can do whatever for quite a bit of time without threatening opposition. UC is unreliable vs 221, clown car can be problematic with a squad inside, but manageable and wc51 is not that hot anymore.

The problem of HEAT rounds is that it should have custom stats for each vehicle. Its damage buff is pointless for mediums against mediums but very good on the puma because it grants 160 damage per shot, and on the King Tiger

Panzer Commander is very useful, and I think the offmap is great. It can even destroy an emplacement if brace is on cooldown or abandoned team weapons if I can't keep the tank stationary and forces every team weapon to move or lose. It also grants +10 sight and +10 accuracy

NOOO need for custom effects on every different vehicle, that makes things messy. on a medium you are going to mostly use the HEAT for then pen, not the damage, or the damage (as in how it effects the AOE) rarely both. HEAT effecting both grants the ability versatility.

Haha, that is embarrassing, haven't played OKW for a long time, kind of forgot about it (oops).

No problem

Still pintle mg has higher ~40% more dps then m20's, although the range is smaller (35 vs 40). From my perspective it is way easier to get value out of it then from m20, since 221 can do whatever for quite a bit of time without threatening opposition. UC is unreliable vs 221, clown car can be problematic with a squad inside, but manageable and wc51 is not that hot anymore.

This is also not correct. The UC is very threatening to the 221, especially when you can't make use of 221 mobility if the UC is supported. An upgraded UC will completely demolish a 221, and same for any other micro light that is upgraded or supported. The 221 has superior mobility to those vehicles, but its the prey and not the hunter, so it's rather easy to deny the use of the offensive capabilities of the 221 without making dedicated at investments. WC51 is very hot, is actually the most popular USF doctrine, which is why it's getting nerfs in this patch, and the wc also counters the 221