Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

No it not.

Your personal utter lack of ability to properly utilize a unit is not an accurate indicator of units balance.

That is simply incorrect:
223 cost 320 manpower and 30 fuel and a pop of 4.

If one manages to keep it on fuel point it will return 30 fuel in 4.3 minutes but it will still not return the 320 manpower or the pop bleed. In sort Opel and Zis truck are cheaper cost no fuel and have non pop.

They are far more cost efficient.

Most people who play the game know that delaying one's vehicles by 4+minutes can be devastating.

Thank you for confirming what I've said.
No idea why you think its still wrong tho.
Also, Opel and ZiS truck can't defend themselves fron infantry harass nor can they detect vehicle coming their way nor can they heal nearby infantry to keep field presence/diminish bleed.

Again, your personal lack of unit understanding and how to properly utilize it is not an indicator of bad balance or design.

And if you compare it with other micro light it too expensive for what it does

If you heed your advise here and compare it with others, you'll find out not a single one of the others does so many things and not a single one of others boosts your resources.

OKW do not need a vehicle to fight infatry and if they want to they can already use the kubel. They need a vehicle to fight enemy micro light like WC51/UC/M3A3 or counter to sniper.

OKW have T0 ATG.

In sort:
"It tries to do too many thing at the same time and thus is average (if not up) in all of them."

I don't know what's so hard for you to understand here.

Again, your personal utter lack of ability to properly utilize a unit is not an accurate indicator of units balance.

The unit does EXACTLY what its supposed to do within the context of its army and the tools that army has during its timing.

You've said it yourself, if you need combat unit, get kubel. 221/3 is NOT primary combatant, never was supposed to be and never will be and most certainly, it isn't an AT vehicle, you trying to use it to counter vehicles might be the root of the problem why you struggle so much with understanding the units role when you keep using it incorrectly like that.

221 arrive way earler than any of those for USF

That's not true, at guns come faster than 221 as I explained comparing starting fuel and tech costs.
If 221 was without counters it would be used instead of being forgotten

That's not true, at guns come faster than 221 as I explained comparing starting fuel and tech costs.
If 221 was without counters it would be used instead of being forgotten

Lol, you don't build an atgun that early if you don't see a potential threat, nobody is going to build a M1 so early in the game before your 221 hit the field.
Then losing a 221 to a HMG requires a severe lack of awareness or keeping you 221 already severly damage on the frontline for too long.

I've seen plenty of OKW players rushing the 221 on USF because they know USF is helpless for some time vs it.
Now I'm not saying actually 221 isn't balanced, but it can't reasonably be buffed without breaking the balance.

Lol, you don't build an atgun that early if you don't see a potential threat, nobody is going to build a M1 so early in the game before your 221 hit the field.

Ok? The m1 OBJECTIVELY comes before the 221, meaning you can build it as soon as you suspect the player called in a 221. That USF pr UKF are left without counters by 221 is complete BS.

Then losing a 221 to a HMG requires a severe lack of awareness or keeping you 221 already severly damage on the frontline for too long.

Countering doesn't mean killing, and for the record, losing a 221 to a stationary at gun also requires lack of self awareness, countering means forcing off the unit to repairs or somewhere else in the map. Also I'm 100% sure that the 50 cal has comparable ttk to the m1 at gun against the 221. The 221 is also useless at range

(edit to add context: this is a reply to posts which were deleted/removed)

I can confirm that any light vehicle play is common as and against OKW and OST in 2on2s top200. There are plenty of light vehicle play in 1on1s. Early RW is not unusual, it keeps light vehicles at bay who otherwise micro infantry to death from range - it depends on what the enemy does and reading hints.

I am not sure why people argue that it's a bad idea to build RWs and light vehicles early. They may not have much play space in 4on4s but I don't play them regularly or even seriously to give some feedback on that. It's a bad idea to build RWs if you don't know what you are doing, obviously.

Ok? The m1 OBJECTIVELY comes before the 221, meaning you can build it as soon as you suspect the player called in a 221. That USF pr UKF are left without counters by 221 is complete BS.



Countering doesn't mean killing, and for the record, losing a 221 to a stationary at gun also requires lack of self awareness, countering means forcing off the unit to repairs or somewhere else in the map. Also I'm 100% sure that the 50 cal has comparable ttk to the m1 at gun against the 221. The 221 is also useless at range

Suspect? There is nothing that tells you a 221 is coming. The same way as OKW you don't build a RW before seeing the M3 because that a waste of 270 manpower if your facing a Conscript or T2 start.

Atgun and HMG don't work the same way, if your 221 is already 1/2 damage an ATG is just going to finish the job if you goes into its arc of fire, not an HMG even if you cruz its arc of fire for a couple of seconds that's not going to be enough to lose your 221.

It is fine. Good recon unit, can provide healing and return its investment after an upgrade. Pretty much if sov gets t2 it can do whatever before forcing an early AT or nade package. If USF skips weapon rack/nades 221 will start against rifles with snares, but still has a window before m20 to pressure enemy, unless lieutenant goes for zook. UKF pretty much has to embrace the bleed or rely on cheeky at nade from RE or UC damage.

+1

the 221's combat performance may be worse than that of other ultra light vehicles, but it makes more than up for this with utility. hence, you wouldn't get a 221 for the early game firepower alone, but more for the long-term benefit it provides by reducing your mp bleed in the first couple of engagements and boosting your fuel/mun income once it gets obsolete in the field.
i'd be against making it any cheaper than it is right now, it's already good enough at what it does.

My point stand:
221/223 try to do too many thing and it end being average in all of them while it delay critical upgrade like faust/MP44 or vehicles like Luch. It should be redesigned.

It might be an accurate statement, but the unit is meant to do so many things.
That's how utility units work.
They do other things that are not combat that inflates their value/takes away their combat capability.

221/3 was never meant to be pure combat vehicle.
It was always meant as a form of fuel cache that isn't opel blitz clone.

You are looking at medkits, detection, mines and resource boost as extrase.
Its the other way around, the gun is extra on this unit.

Suspect? There is nothing that tells you a 221 is coming. The same way as OKW you don't build a RW before seeing the M3 because that a waste of 270 manpower if your facing a Conscript or T2 start.

Atgun and HMG don't work the same way, if your 221 is already 1/2 damage an ATG is just going to finish the job if you goes into its arc of fire, not an HMG even if you cruz its arc of fire for a couple of seconds that's not going to be enough to lose your 221.

It doesn't matter, you can build an at gun/hmg as soon as you see a 221, always, no matter what

And again it doesn't matter, 50 cal interdicts 221 from ever grtting closer to infantry and vice versa, so the 221 has counters either way

And again it doesn't matter, 50 cal interdicts 221 from ever grtting closer to infantry and vice versa, so the 221 has counters either way

221 is a vehicle.
It can't be suppressed.
It can just park right behind hmg and kill it easily.

You don't see that with other lights, because other lights have no turret.

If the problem is the timing just lock it after first truck call in ,

Does the unit performance value its cost ?

221 is a vehicle.
It can't be suppressed.
It can just park right behind hmg and kill it easily.

Too bad that most players play the game and support the hmg with infantry

Too bad that most players play the game and support the hmg with infantry

That is 100% map, game mode and playstyle dependent, unless you have some kind of metric I have missed to confirm that claim.

Because in 2s for example, HMGs are used to defend certain point of the map vast majority of the time and the largest support that HMG will have is going to be a piece of wire or an odd mine.

Too bad that most players play the game and support the hmg with infantry

You should also do that sometimes. Support your units. Maybe then you'll get a clearer grasp of balance and how it affects different units with different abilities and different roles.

"Too bad the enemy is not as braindead as I am" is literally your argument.

It might be an accurate statement, but the unit is meant to do so many things.
That's how utility units work.
They do other things that are not combat that inflates their value/takes away their combat capability.

221/3 was never meant to be pure combat vehicle.
It was always meant as a form of fuel cache that isn't opel blitz clone.

You are looking at medkits, detection, mines and resource boost as extrase.
Its the other way around, the gun is extra on this unit.

Glad to see that you that you agree with my point.

And the problem with current implementation is that:
1) One can build the 221 a soon as it available and delay access to crucial tools like faust/ST44 upgrade/Luch for a unit that UP as combat unit, in the hope that in late game if his 221 survives and he chooses to invest more to upgrade to 223 he can eventually get some economical return back.

2) One can build it after setting up his truck when the timing 221 is late can easily be countered.

3) One can use the 221 in the front line where it rather weak and utility is not very helpful (medic kit do not heal in combat unit can not reinforce)

4) One set up the 223 and not really benefit from the so much advertised "utility". Recon only too far back, mine at vet 5 which is joke, healing not really helpful in back line.

In sort the design of the unit is not optimal and it can easily be improved, there easy change that can make these do less but do them better so that people have more reason to use them.