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Commander Update Beta 2021 - British Feedback

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3 May 2021, 09:43 AM
#441
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2021, 09:12 AMVipper
BAR-K IS are good mid range without having to vet like riflemen, while double Bren Raid section are better than LMG lifmen at long range for 20 munition more.


The max range DPS difference for double Bren Raid Section vs M1919 + BAR Riflemen is negligible (18,9 vs 17,9) while being significantly worse at close to mid range in case they get overrun. In other words, it wouldn't be an issue. And I highly doubt anyone would use it anyway, because double Bren IS would be way better at mid to far range and the difference between the Lee Enfields at close range becomes negligible too, given how those models are the first to drop.

1 Bren and 1 Vickers combos might work, copying M1919 + BAR on Riflemen, but it'd be slightly worse. So it won't be an issue.
3 May 2021, 10:29 AM
#442
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


Pls provide evidence to back your claims that its otherwise.
You're the one who made that claim.

1) Actually you are the one that made the claim that Ro.E are bad vs vetted infatry not me so you are the one that should back it up.:

Inb4 someone actually is naive enough to believe that royal engineers are actually good if you put weapons on them other then PIATs, lets remember that REs are the ONLY infantry in the whole game who do NOT get ANY accuracy vet.

Their firepower does not scale, its ALL about the weapon itself and it falls short badly against vetted inf.


2) I have actually provided you with such test result in previews post.


Prove it first before asking proofs of others, excel sheet hero.

Since you insist and I guess it too much for you to install the game and do the test here it:

Heavy sapper 2 bren vet 3 vs Vet 3 lmg grenadier win 5/0

Heavy sapper 2 bren vet 3 vs Vet 5 VG 5/0 lossing a single model.

Now feel free to provide your proof that vetted Ro.E with weapons "falls short badly against vetted inf", " Mr. twitch general".
3 May 2021, 10:32 AM
#443
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

And it doesn't change a single thing about that I've said.

Which is, again:
They are the ONLY unit in game with ZERO accuracy vet. Their damage scaling is EXCLUSIVELY upgrades.

You're getting worked up to prove me wrong on an argument I never made, congrats.
3 May 2021, 10:36 AM
#444
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



The max range DPS difference for double Bren Raid Section vs M1919 + BAR Riflemen is negligible (18,9 vs 17,9) while being significantly worse at close to mid range in case they get overrun. In other words, it wouldn't be an issue.

Most infatry can not over run double Bren Raid Section (or M1919 + BAR Riflemen) or even if they can they will sustain casualties while the RS will simply retreat. RS even have incendiary grenades to stall approaching infatry.


And I highly doubt anyone would use it anyway, because double Bren IS would be way better at mid to far range and the difference between the Lee Enfields at close range becomes negligible too, given how those models are the first to drop.



1 Bren and 1 Vickers combos might work, copying M1919 + BAR on Riflemen, but it'd be slightly worse. So it won't be an issue.
And my point stand. UKF are not getting simply riflemen, they are getting all the available combo that m1919/BAR gives to USF.
3 May 2021, 10:43 AM
#445
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

And it doesn't change a single thing about that I've said.

Yes it does.

It proves this claim:
"it falls short badly against vetted inf."
to be false since Ro.E easily and clearly beat vetted VG/GRen


Which is, again:
They are the ONLY unit in game with ZERO accuracy vet.

Never claimed that they get any accuracy as vet bonus so there is not point in repeating it.


Their damage scaling is EXCLUSIVELY upgrades.

That is simply false:
-70% cooldown in the cover.
+50% reload speed in the cover.

They do get damage scaling with vet for their sten when in cover.


You're getting worked up to prove me wrong on an argument I never made, clown.

I do not worked up and I have proved you wrong Ro.e beat vetted infatry.

Ro.E do get combat bonuses regardless if they get accuracy or not and they can fight effectively especial in late game if one invest in giving them weapons.
3 May 2021, 10:46 AM
#446
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

And it doesn't change a single thing about that I've said.

Which is, again:
They are the ONLY unit in game with ZERO accuracy vet. Their damage scaling is EXCLUSIVELY upgrades.

You're getting worked up to prove me wrong on an argument I never made, congrats.


Double Bren heavy engies do perform decently in combat, although they are exceptionally munitions heavy, but then so are IS. How they scale does not matter that much. Saying they do not get accuracy with vet is misleading because they do get combat bonusses when in cover (however not 100% if on Sten only or if it also works for other weapons).
I think if you manage to vet your engies early, they are a decent pick to make them a fighting unit. Building a fresh one in the late game for that purpose is what is not working.
3 May 2021, 10:50 AM
#447
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Double Bren heavy engies do perform decently in combat, although they are exceptionally munitions heavy, but then so are IS. How they scale does not matter that much. Saying they do not get accuracy with vet is misleading because they do get combat bonusses when in cover (however not 100% if on Sten only or if it also works for other weapons).
I think if you manage to vet your engies early, they are a decent pick to make them a fighting unit. Building a fresh one in the late game for that purpose is what is not working.

One has also to keep in mind that R.o. get received accuracy (-33% received accuracy, Target size vet3: 0.59 )/reinforcement bonus that are combat bonuses and Heavy sapper get armor on top of that.

Once reaching vet 3 heavy sappers are one of the most durable squad in game.
3 May 2021, 10:56 AM
#448
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Double Bren heavy engies do perform decently in combat, although they are exceptionally munitions heavy, but then so are IS. How they scale does not matter that much. Saying they do not get accuracy with vet is misleading because they do get combat bonusses when in cover (however not 100% if on Sten only or if it also works for other weapons).
I think if you manage to vet your engies early, they are a decent pick to make them a fighting unit. Building a fresh one in the late game for that purpose is what is not working.

Their in-cover bonuses are exclusively for STEN guns, they affect no other weapon and despite high values, its very minor and insignificant increase compared even to 15% accuracy of pios/CEs.
3 May 2021, 11:05 AM
#449
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2021, 10:50 AMVipper

One has also to keep in mind that R.o. get received accuracy/reifocment bonus that are combat bonuses and Heavy sapper get armor.

Once reaching vet 3 heavy sappers are one of the most durable squad in game.

At vet 3 yes. At vet2 they are fairly average. That's why I said it is probably best to use the once that vetted early while rebuilding one late game does not give a big benefit over an IS that already performs better at vet2.



Their in-cover bonuses are exclusively for STEN guns, they affect no other weapon and despite high values, its very minor and insignificant increase compared even to 15% accuracy of pios/CEs.

If it is for sten only then it is indeed only a small short range increase. It does not change the fact that the unit still is a decent combat squad, especially for 6 pop.
3 May 2021, 11:34 AM
#450
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


At vet 3 yes. At vet2 they are fairly average. That's why I said it is probably best to use the once that vetted early while rebuilding one late game does not give a big benefit over an IS that already performs better at vet2.



If it is for sten only then it is indeed only a small short range increase. It does not change the fact that the unit still is a decent combat squad, especially for 6 pop.

If my calculation are correct the bonus is around 23%-24% more DPS at all ranges so is not "that" small while being available from vet 1.

Any issue has more to do with the restriction to cover than the bonus itself.
3 May 2021, 11:44 AM
#451
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2021, 11:34 AMVipper

If my calculation are correct the bonus is around 23%-24% more DPS at all ranges so is not "that" small while being available from vet 1.

Any issue has more to do with the restriction to cover than the bonus itself.

Indeed a great bonus for TWO weak guns, exclusively at CQC, exclusively in cover, compared to accuracy bonuses for ALL weapons, picked up included, all other engineers have.

You're clowning hard now, this is completely meaningless for your tripple LMG long range scenario and sounds good exclusively on paper.
3 May 2021, 11:46 AM
#452
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2021, 11:34 AMVipper

If my calculation are correct the bonus is around 23%-24% more DPS at all ranges so is not "that" small while being available from vet 1.

Any issue has more to do with the restriction to cover than the bonus itself.

The discussion was about 2xBren heavy sappers. They only have two squads and are a long range squad, so the vet1 bonus will not contribute much.
3 May 2021, 11:55 AM
#453
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


The discussion was about 2xBren heavy sappers. They only have two squads and are a long range squad, so the vet1 bonus will not contribute much.

Yes, once upgraded with long range weapon the bonus is not that great.

On the other hand it available at vet 1 where the majority of infatry do not get any combat bonus and get more combat bonuses at vet 3.
3 May 2021, 12:30 PM
#454
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2021, 06:28 AMVipper
Imo the Vicker-K /Raid section will probably cause issue.

Although turning Vicker-K into BAR might seem to be ok there are fundamental difference between USF and UKF unit that one should consider.

IS start with lower target and better far DPS tha riflemen and BAR-K fixes their main weakness: Close DPS and on the move DPS.

IS with 1 bren/BAR-K will simply perform excellent in all range.

Ro.E compared to RE might start a bit slow but once they vet up they become way too durable thus double BAR-K or even 3 weapons on them including flamer will make them a very cost efficient unit in late with lots of utility.

In a similar manner Raid section with double bren (or brain/BAR-K) will also perform great at all range similar or even superior to LMG Riflemen.

Giving BAR-K to UKF is more like giving LMG riflemen to UKF than simply giving them riflemen.


They perform almost same to the RM with higher reinforce cost & no snare according to this(https://youtu.be/C75_nvhL_e8?t=841).

TBH, I don't think I'll play 1v1 with UKF after this patch either.
3 May 2021, 12:35 PM
#455
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


Indeed a great bonus for TWO weak guns, exclusively at CQC, exclusively in cover, compared to accuracy bonuses for ALL weapons, picked up included, all other engineers have.

You're clowning hard now, this is completely meaningless for your tripple LMG long range scenario and sounds good exclusively on paper.

Since you insist down the same path and continue to posting only in an attempt to prove me wrong I have little option left but to shown how many things you gotten wrong so far:

... it falls short badly against vetted inf.

Proven completely wrong Vet RO.E where able to beat Vet grenadier/Vg with easy

...Their damage scaling is EXCLUSIVELY upgrades.
..

Proven wrong since Ro.E get around 23% more DPS when in cover at vet 1


... despite high values, its very minor and insignificant increase compared even to 15% accuracy of pios/CEs.

First error Pios/CE get 20% accuracy at vet 2 not 15
and
23% more DPS at vet 1 in ot "very minor and insignificant increase" to 15% accuracy it even more than the correct 20%.

I also need to point out to you that Pioneer/CE do not get rack weapons, they get the flamer upgrade instead that does not benefit that much from accuracy.

Now it is pretty obvious that if there is someone that is "naive" and a "clown" that is actually you.

Contrary to your little theory about Ro.E not a geting accuracy bonus "and falling sort badly" the fact remains that Ro.E. can fight and even beat axis mainline infantry once vetted/upgraded.


3 May 2021, 12:38 PM
#456
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



They perform almost same to the RM with higher reinforce cost & no snare according to this(https://youtu.be/C75_nvhL_e8?t=841).

TBH, I don't think I'll play 1v1 with UKF after this patch either.

1) reinforcement cost is a "bug" and it going down

2) Those are Double Vicker-K RS and of course they will perform similar to double BAR riflemen. They stat are changed to match those of riflemen. Double Bren Raid sections (or 1+1) would had won that test.

My point is that UKF already have access to LMG and the changes make them perform like LMG RM.

Vet 3 double Bren Raid section probably beat LMG grenadier at all range possible double Vicker-K beat lmg grenadier at all range also and they can still use a combination of these weapon.
3 May 2021, 12:48 PM
#457
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2021, 12:38 PMVipper

1) reinforcement cost is a "bug" and it going down

2) Those are Double Vicker-K RS and of course they will perform similar to double BAR riflemen. They stat are changed to match those of riflemen. Double Bren Raid sections (or 1+1) would had won that test.

My point is that UKF already have access to LMG and the changes make them perform like LMG RM.


1) good to know. So it suppose to be 28?

2) I thought vickers K is better than bren. Was it not?

My point is UKF gain access to RM WITHOUT snare means nothing. Just play USF with RM would be better. I don't see why you are complaining.
3 May 2021, 12:52 PM
#458
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



1) good to know. So it suppose to be 28?

I do not konw that info but probable value.


2) I thought vickers K is better than bren. Was it not?

In live Vicker-k is better than bren but cost more, it about as cost efficient.

In patch the weapon is no longer an LMG but an assault rifle and very close to BAR.


My point is UKF gain access to RM WITHOUT snare means nothing. Just play USF with RM would be better. I don't see why you are complaining.

Your misconception start with the assumption that I am complaining, the whole point of the preview is to provide feedback so that game is actually improved instead of becoming worse. I am simply pointing out potential issues.
3 May 2021, 12:56 PM
#459
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2021, 12:52 PMVipper

I am simply pointing out potential issues.


UKF (obviously) performs bad in current patch, and giving what seems RM without snare can change nothing. I'll change my comment, I don't see potential issue here.
3 May 2021, 13:12 PM
#460
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



UKF (obviously) performs bad in current patch, and giving what seems RM without snare can change nothing. I'll change my comment, I don't see potential issue here.

Having snare or not on mainline infatry is faction design issue.

This patch that focuses on doctrinal issues so the issue of snare or not on mainline infatry for UKF is rather irrelevant even more so since there weapon are also available to Ro.E that do come with snares.
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