Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback

Why?

What's wrong with ability getting better with vet?
E8 never struggled against meds and gunnery makes it into "mini panther" to contest actual panther without reliance on jacksons exclusively.

Which is absolutely ludicrous, considering it comes way earlier and cost less. I fuck balance when it comes to AEF i suppose.

Which is absolutely ludicrous, considering it comes way earlier and cost less. I fuck balance when it comes to AEF i suppose.

Why?

Its weaker.

Its cheaper and comes earlier, but it isn't an actual panther, it has NOWHERE near performance of panther, so why are you so scared?

I'm also quite positive that a 25% mobility penalty for a tank that gets 20% mobility bonus by vet 2 is not such big deal too
It's a bad ability because there's no reason to turn it off with veterancy which is why I proposed 2 dps modes instead of a penetration buff for mobility

This is an interesting point... It would almost be cleaner if they just gave E8 a Range and Penetration boost at Vet 2 instead of an ability and did something else with Vet 1. Or just give it the Range bonus through Vet and timed HVAP shells. A third option would be to have it have timed HVAP shells give extra range(maybe call it something else to avoid confusion with other HVAP abilities) . I'm thinking

76MM - benefit of HVAP being "always on" and possible synergy with Combined Arms. Vet 3 HVAP close to Vet 1 Jackson HAVP
M10 - Cheap, less health, speed ability, Vet 1 HVAP lets you basically have similar Standard Jackson Penetration
Jackson - Best Pen, Range and extra damage HVAP
EZ8 - Standard 160 damage but more durable, Extra Range as a medium tank, Extra Health

Comparison of Penetrations
Show Spoiler

So right now EZ8 in gunnery mode is basically a beefy Vet 0 Jackson with less range and slightly worse pen. 76MM probably has the higher ceiling in terms of pure dive potential with less survivability and range but no mobility nerf, combined arms, and a constant HVAP mode with better penetration. I think it would be feasible to have a theoretical EZ8 HVAP Timed ability that would give you a limited time window to fight heavies. Maybe give it performance in the neighborhood of Vet 0 Jackson and maybe 45 range. That way it's more survivable, has a unique range, but doesn't dominate other mediums too hard unless you are constantly dumping munitions into HVAP. Bonus is this still gives M10 and 76MM their own unique advantages.

My bad, I forgot only axis is allowed to have good tanks

And only USF armour can heal itself. You can't have everything. Think to yourself and your factionally biased self "would a Panther that can self heal be great for balance?" and then when you inevitably answer no re-evaluate why you think it would be OK with a Jackson behind it and double bar rifles in front of it.

And only USF armour can heal itself. You can't have everything. Think to yourself and your factionally biased self "would a Panther that can self heal be great for balance?" and then when you inevitably answer no re-evaluate why you think it would be OK with a Jackson behind it and double bar rifles in front of it.

usf pays for self repair by having shit durability on its tanks. why do you think people love the dozer 75mm so much?

It does if you need speed and mobility i.e. in a dive

At that point, why not just make it a base stat sort of thing and just add a flanking speed ability for when you need to dive. Although I don't recommend diving with the E8 just because it costs too much to be used in a dive.

quote post="865148"]
usf pays for self repair by having shit durability on its tanks. why do you think people love the dozer 75mm so much?
Yes. I'm glad you understand. This is why a meatshield unit for USF is a no go. A mini Panther is not congruent with self healing armour.

Yes. I'm glad you understand. This is why a meatshield unit for USF is a no go. A mini Panther is not congruent with self healing armour.

You mean the doctrinal unit?

Like the panther can hulldown for 62 range doctrinally?
or self repair doctrinally?

This is an interesting point... It would almost be cleaner if they just gave E8 a Range and Penetration boost at Vet 2 instead of an ability and did something else with Vet 1. Or just give it the Range bonus through Vet and timed HVAP shells. A third option would be to have it have timed HVAP shells give extra range(maybe call it something else to avoid confusion with other HVAP abilities) . I'm thinking

76MM - benefit of HVAP being "always on" and possible synergy with Combined Arms. Vet 3 HVAP close to Vet 1 Jackson HAVP
M10 - Cheap, less health, speed ability, Vet 1 HVAP lets you basically have similar Standard Jackson Penetration
Jackson - Best Pen, Range and extra damage HVAP
EZ8 - Standard 160 damage but more durable, Extra Range as a medium tank, Extra Health

Comparison of Penetrations
Show Spoiler

So right now EZ8 in gunnery mode is basically a beefy Vet 0 Jackson with less range and slightly worse pen. 76MM probably has the higher ceiling in terms of pure dive potential with less survivability and range but no mobility nerf, combined arms, and a constant HVAP mode with better penetration. I think it would be feasible to have a theoretical EZ8 HVAP Timed ability that would give you a limited time window to fight heavies. Maybe give it performance in the neighborhood of Vet 0 Jackson and maybe 45 range. That way it's more survivable, has a unique range, but doesn't dominate other mediums too hard unless you are constantly dumping munitions into HVAP. Bonus is this still gives M10 and 76MM their own unique advantages.

That's ALSO a good option that could be tested

My idea was to avoid yet another unit to be dependant on HVAP munition ability to fight heavies.

I'm still convinced that the best idea would be standardize the 76mm performance between the two tanks and give the Easy 8 extra health and armor and fuel cost.

That said
Ideally, regardless of how you call it, the best way to avoid the Easy 8 from bullying either Mediums or Heavies too much, is to create 2 different firing modes. Normal mode imitates live version Panther, 160 damage per shot, low penetration, about 4-5 seconds reload and 40 range. The second, you can consider it HVAP shell, will have 200 damage and high penetration, but about 8 seconds reload, and 50 range.
This is inspired to previous versions of the Panther, when it was balanced to be a more specialized anti heavy tank

About ez8 changing, Buff its mobility and unity is better than On/Off skills,
My recommend is:
1/ default M42A1 HE shell shot:
+ range: 40m cost: 20 ammu
+ DMG profile like M4 He shell.
+ countdown: 35s, affected with Radio net.
+ Tank need to load it first, no delay on aimming.
Reason: Give Ez8 an actually Anti inf power but not powẻrcreep (control by Player mirco).
2/ vet 2: buff mobility, make Ez8 run faster, accelaration faster. With this, Ez8 would Overwhelming axis medium tanks and explore the frontline with fast HE shot.
- New timmed ability: M62 APCBC shell: The shell With better balistic cap design provide better pen than default AP in all range. It fill with 63.7 gram of HE inside for more post damage.
+ pen: 245/220/200.
+ Reload time: 30% lower than default shot, can be faster with radion net.
+ dmg:200.
+ Cost: 50 ammu. active time in 40s
+ Cooldown time: 50~60s, affected with Radio net like HE shell shot.
+ Come in at vet 2 so people had to save and build up their ez8 team to unlock their fully power.
in 1v1, that idea give USF players more agressive and tools to play ez8 rather than M4 76, M36 which can stand against Panther in close combat ( out control skill) while supporting inf with HE shot.
in team game, muti ez8 vet 2 as reactive force to hold panther horde. it may cant win the charge but still give the horde a headheache so AT gun, TD can properly finish them.

btw: He shell skill shot can use while APCBC is actived. But it would cancel current skill and you had to wait 20s to use APCBC skill aganist. That 20s cannot be effected with radio net for balance.
Both switch-able shells cooldown are effected with radio net so you had to bring 2-3 tank together to pursuit and destroy axis death ball.

Why?

Its weaker.

Its cheaper and comes earlier, but it isn't an actual panther, it has NOWHERE near performance of panther, so why are you so scared?

BC the AEF faction.

You mean the doctrinal unit?

Like the panther can hulldown for 62 range doctrinally?
or self repair doctrinally?

Doctrine or not, and what the Panther can do or not has no bearing in the design of USF. That design dictates that they are not to have durable armour, instead they have mobile armour that can heal itself.

Every faction pays for their strengths with weaknesses.
Soviet have durable infantry but lack concentrated dps. They are designed to out attrition the enemy.
Ost has small squads but better than average team weapons and high impact squads. They are meant to outperform not out last.
OKW has no caches but has 5 levels of vet, non-doc elite infantry and armour. They are meant to outlast and out fight but not outproduce- nothing they have is "cheap"
Usf is extremely mobile and VERY aggressive. They are meant to lick their wounds quicker than anyone else be back in the fight before their enemy can. They are meant to keep the enemy on the back foot not to outlast them in a slug fest.

And only USF armour can heal itself. You can't have everything. Think to yourself and your factionally biased self "would a Panther that can self heal be great for balance?" and then when you inevitably answer no re-evaluate why you think it would be OK with a Jackson behind it and double bar rifles in front of it.

Technically you can just pick german mechanized and use self heal it provides in patch.

Balanced as everything should be.

Doctrine or not, and what the Panther can do or not has no bearing in the design of USF. That design dictates that they are not to have durable armour, instead they have mobile armour that can heal itself.

Every faction pays for their strengths with weaknesses.
Soviet have durable infantry but lack concentrated dps. They are designed to out attrition the enemy.
Ost has small squads but better than average team weapons and high impact squads. They are meant to outperform not out last.
OKW has no caches but has 5 levels of vet, non-doc elite infantry and armour. They are meant to outlast and out fight but not outproduce- nothing they have is "cheap"
Usf is extremely mobile and VERY aggressive. They are meant to lick their wounds quicker than anyone else be back in the fight before their enemy can. They are meant to keep the enemy on the back foot not to outlast them in a slug fest.

As Aarotron said, doctrines regularly break the core faction rules and they can still be balanced.
Assgrens make a very defensive Ostheer into an early aggressive faction (same for Assault Sections and UKF), G43s on Grenadiers make them mobile and aggressive as well. Soviets get multiple highly durable tanks on doctrines. There's nothing inherently wrong with USF getting a durable tank as well. The exact design is up for debate obviously, but USF having thin armor otherwise is not reason against the EZ8 being survivable.

As Aarotron said, doctrines regularly break the core faction rules and they can still be balanced.
Assgrens make a very defensive Ostheer into an early aggressive faction (same for Assault Sections and UKF), G43s on Grenadiers make them mobile and aggressive as well. Soviets get multiple highly durable tanks on doctrines. There's nothing inherently wrong with USF getting a durable tank as well. The exact design is up for debate obviously, but USF having thin armor otherwise is not reason against the EZ8 being survivable.

This is bad comparison tbh. Doctines dont, in a global scale, break faction rules, they allow different playstyle with-in the faction rules.

When they are truly breaking the core of the faction we have VSL, pre-nerfed SVTs and osttroopens. Its been proven a lot of the times by now, that its very dangerious to add tools which potentually just strateforward changing how faction works.

This is bad comparison tbh. Doctines dont, in a global scale, break faction rules, they allow different playstyle with-in the faction rules.

When they are truly breaking the core of the faction we have VSL, pre-nerfed SVTs and osttroopens. Its been proven a lot of the times by now, that its very dangerious to add tools which potentually just strateforward changing how faction works.

But those are all infantry related. How would a doctrine that gives USF a more durable tank be 'broken' balance wise and not 'broken' aesthetic wise. I think you are getting the 2 confused.

Lets give USF a super sherman that does better inf damage than the HE round and can go toe to toe with a panther but only have a 60% or so chance of winning. Lets also give it a guaranteed pen long range snipe shot so it can make plays and then retreat but still snipe elephants. OH and lets balance it by removing the USF 'self heal'.

Sounds good?

Do you see how the game is at the stage where it cannot learn from itself anymore. Everyone knows what everything does and how to counter.Either changes need to be implemented that shake it up, 1v1 pro and teamgame, OR nothing is changed, because some people seem to think any change on Allieds will break something therefore we should leave it at it is... balanced. No.

This is bad comparison tbh. Doctines dont, in a global scale, break faction rules, they allow different playstyle with-in the faction rules. .

I simply don't get it. One is allowing different playstyle within the faction rule, and one is "breaking the faction rule"?

Can you elaborate more?

And if possible, provide me what is the faction rule(for each faction) here?

USF must have low armor? UKF mainline inf. must not have snare?

This is bad comparison tbh. Doctines dont, in a global scale, break faction rules, they allow different playstyle with-in the faction rules.

When they are truly breaking the core of the faction we have VSL, pre-nerfed SVTs and osttroopens. Its been proven a lot of the times by now, that its very dangerious to add tools which potentually just strateforward changing how faction works.

Yet we still have all of those after they have been adjusted. VSL in particular have been in the game for a long time before they became meta, because at the time the Tiger - notably, a unit with which Ostheer was designed - overshadowed them heavily. The doctrines I mentioned all break the "rules" that the core of the faction indicates. We could even add more: UKF and USF getting long range artillery, UKF getting a mobile mortar and Ostheer having the best long range TD in the whole game. My point is that this "design" of filling holes in the line up with doctrines is not a new concept. I would even argue it was supposed to be like that from the get go, at least for the eastern front armies (especially considering Soviets getting elite infantry via doctrines while having only trash infantry in their main tech paths).

This is not a new concept and we find it in a multitude of commanders, many of those are considered to be fine, some UP, some OP. If it is a balance issue, then not necessarily because this hole has been filled, but more often than not because the unit itself is not properly balanced.

I agree though that yes, it can cause issues. But I don't see how in the case of a "mini Panther" EZ8. If USF cannot have heavier armor than 160 there should be no Pershing, o dozer upgrade and no EZ8 in the first place. Pershing and EZ8 are barely used in the game. And on top of that, Axis can deal with heavy armor as proven with the existance of Soviet doctrinal tanks and UKF tanks.

So if a) USF already can field some heavier armor and b) Axis can field proper counters, I don't see a reason to cancel a "mini Panther" EZ8 already at the theoretical stage as OP.