Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback

What about E8 with 960 hp instead of 720???

Crew would have to go. USF was designed explicitly with the intention of not having staying power in their armour but instead mobility and rapid repairs to keep up momentum. A 960hp 215 armored tank that can self repair and fix crits with jacksons behind it and rifles in front of it?

Its already takes and extra hit and can bounce pak shells-the only other usf vehicles with that boast are the Sherman dozer and the Pershing-all while being faster than a Panther....

What about E8 with 960 hp instead of 720???

Look, if you want the Allied Panther be prepared to pay Panther prices....or play Comets with their own tech costs.

Look, if you want the Allied Panther be prepared to pay Panther prices....or play Comets with their own tech costs.

Yeah, allies having a Panther would bring about a lot of problems. USF having a meatier tank however, would not. I can't see why they don't buff HP to 800 and armour to 230 and further increase the price. Panther would still eat them for lunch but would give USF a tank that could work in teamgames. I mean, HE Sherman is a rare sight in anything beyond 3v3, with the hidden raketen and whatnot, so the argument HE Sherman + Jackson does not really hold water. You give up on two extremes (extreme AI and extreme AT, super fragile) for a generalist tank that can take a punch.

Giving the E8, 33 tonnes as much health as the panther, 44 seems really off mark. The tank was built with very good on the move stability and a superior gun. As far as I'm aware it didn't have superior armor to most other shermans so I think only 80 extra health is fine to make the tank feel a little more diverse it is a little wider. I'd rather see the tank have it's moving accuracy increased further maybe to 90%? And a slight increase to area of effect on the gun for anti infantry making it a more expensive alternative to the M4A3 rather then a sidegrade that's worse then the stock jackson.

The EZ8 is the brawler tank that USF otherwise does not get. 5 shots and >200 armor give it a clear anti medium role. Where it falls short a bit is that there is not that much benefit outside of mediums. The AoE is decently worse so there is no real off-duty use vs infantry. Against Panthers I don't know if it is worth the marked up price, you'd usually be better off with a jackson in that regard. Especially given that the USF ATG eats a ton of mun to be effective late game.
I can see usage for it in 1v1 and maybe 2v2, in 3v3 I'd probably stick with a Jackson in any case.

I've read your other posts in this thread on the subject and I think I understand the recent addition for the commander but I don't think the extra range is going to save this tank.

In the same way that a light tank rush is great vs infantry but becomes a brick vs mediums, the E8 is great against mediums but becomes a brick against heavies. Upgraded sight or an extra shot isn't going to make it better against heavies. Especially not for its cost. Increased cost means it comes out later so it can't be rushed and becomes a bigger brick later. My main complaint with the E8 is it sucks to use and the short window of E8 supremacy doesn't exist in team games which makes this change pretty bad for team games.

At least lights are still good as scout vehicles and against infantry after their time window of supremacy is over. The E8 doesn't have a role going for it. The E8 is mediocre against infantry and its a big investment that isn't worth the value except to lock your opponent out of meds and forced to save for heavies to break through. The Jackson does a good job with dealing with meds and while not locking meds out, it will do good against heavies too.

There's better value choosing a Jackson than with an E8. For a doctrinal slot, the E8 is still a wasted slot.

Ideally any fix to the E8 gives it a defined role or gives it a niche so that it remains useful outside of fighting tanks or infantry. I like the hp upgrade idea.

Here's a wild thought though: What if E8 had 'improved smoke grenade launchers'. Extra +10 range on the smoke grenade launcher and it costs 0 muni to use in exchange for +15s cooldown. That way, the E8 becomes solidified as a infantry support tank, high cost in exchange for saving munis, it will still struggle against heavies but at least it can drop smoke on a dime (and saving you a dime). Rifleman squads should have increased infantry power by being able to pick up more BARs and having easy access to smoke. This somewhat makes the E8 take over the role of the Scott because of the free smoke but I think it is a good change. Now the E8 becomes a chimera of the sherman, jackson and scott combined.

Look, if you want the Allied Panther be prepared to pay Panther prices....or play Comets with their own tech costs.

I mean It's not as powerful as the panther + it's doctrinal so 150 fuel is fine in my opinion.

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+1

Here's a wild thought though: What if E8 had 'improved smoke grenade launchers'. Extra +10 range on the smoke grenade launcher and it costs 0 muni to use in exchange for +15s cooldown. That way, the E8 becomes solidified as a infantry support tank, high cost in exchange for saving munis, it will still struggle against heavies but at least it can drop smoke on a dime (and saving you a dime). Rifleman squads should have increased infantry power by being able to pick up more BARs and having easy access to smoke. This somewhat makes the E8 take over the role of the Scott because of the free smoke but I think it is a good change. Now the E8 becomes a chimera of the sherman, jackson and scott combined.

A bit wild but maybe.

On the paper the EZ8 has some niche, but what's probably the issue is that it falls just short in all categories.
- +1 shot it can take? Very nice
- 215 armor? Good for the mid phase, scales mediocre into the late game. 215 is in a weird spot of letting you bounce unvetted ATGs, but you get guaranteed pens by Panthers and vetted ATGs.
- AT performance? Nice, closes the gap vs the P4. Not the best deal vs OKW T3 and Ost T4 though because too unreliable. Slow ROF, so no surprise burst damage. Especially if it cannot be reliably followed up by an ATG.
- AI performance? A lot worse than the flexibility you get with the normal Sherman. With MG upgrade okay. I think this is the long term deal breaker. Once late game units arrive, mediums usually transition more into an AI role. The EZ8 can't do that while having only "okay" AT for the phase.


I see two possibilities:
Either make it a infantry support unit with support abilities. Or strengthen the brawler role and make it a "Panther light" -> health to 880 or 960, armor not quite sure (maybe leave as is with the vehicle crew), penetration to 200/180/170 with +10% with vet, range 45-50 (potentially 45 +5 with vet?), MP cost to 420-440, FU cost 160, pop to 16.

This way it would have a distinct role as a different AT unit from both Jackson and 76mm, while Axis could still counter it because it gets damaged reliably by dedicated AT units. Scaling into the late game would also be improved with at least a ~70-75% pen chance vs higher tier armor which is still less than the Jackson to not outclass that unit. At all times it would lose to a more expensive Panther while still being a threat to it with support.

+1



A bit wild but maybe.

On the paper the EZ8 has some niche, but what's probably the issue is that it falls just short in all categories.
- +1 shot it can take? Very nice
- 215 armor? Good for the mid phase, scales mediocre into the late game. 215 is in a weird spot of letting you bounce unvetted ATGs, but you get guaranteed pens by Panthers and vetted ATGs.
- AT performance? Nice, closes the gap vs the P4. Not the best deal vs OKW T3 and Ost T4 though because too unreliable. Slow ROF, so no surprise burst damage. Especially if it cannot be reliably followed up by an ATG.
- AI performance? A lot worse than the flexibility you get with the normal Sherman. With MG upgrade okay. I think this is the long term deal breaker. Once late game units arrive, mediums usually transition more into an AI role. The EZ8 can't do that while having only "okay" AT for the phase.


I see two possibilities:
Either make it a infantry support unit with support abilities. Or strengthen the brawler role and make it a "Panther light" -> health to 880 or 960, armor not quite sure (maybe leave as is with the vehicle crew), penetration to 200/180/170 with +10% with vet, range 45-50 (potentially 45 +5 with vet?), MP cost to 420-440, FU cost 160, pop to 16.

This way it would have a distinct role as a different AT unit from both Jackson and 76mm, while Axis could still counter it because it gets damaged reliably by dedicated AT units. Scaling into the late game would also be improved with at least a ~70-75% pen chance vs higher tier armor which is still less than the Jackson to not outclass that unit. At all times it would lose to a more expensive Panther while still being a threat to it with support.

big +

- AI performance? A lot worse than the flexibility you get with the normal Sherman. With MG upgrade okay. I think this is the long term deal breaker. Once late game units arrive, mediums usually transition more into an AI role. The EZ8 can't do that while having only "okay" AT for the phase.

Good analysis. This is the real problem, what to do with it when the big cats hit the field? 76mm has the same problem after nerf to RoF and nerf to combined arms RoF. It has the AoE profile of E8 while having more scatter. It fast RoF made it viable at AI while still not beeing at M4A3 level of course.

I really would like to see the AoE profile of Cromwell for both Shermans, this wouldn't change OHK ratio at all (nowhere close too PZIV or T34) but raise far damage and thus give some more consistent damage over multiple shots. It still would be far away from the performance of M4A3 HE-Shells.

Yeah, allies having a Panther would bring about a lot of problems. USF having a meatier tank however, would not. I can't see why they don't buff HP to 800 and armour to 230 and further increase the price. Panther would still eat them for lunch but would give USF a tank that could work in teamgames. I mean, HE Sherman is a rare sight in anything beyond 3v3, with the hidden raketen and whatnot, so the argument HE Sherman + Jackson does not really hold water. You give up on two extremes (extreme AI and extreme AT, super fragile) for a generalist tank that can take a punch.

What you're talking about is a Sherman Jumbo which will never be added to the game sadly because reasons.

Been talking about the same thing for years now and yet still here we are but at least I'm glad that other people have the same idea as me.

What you're talking about is a Sherman Jumbo which will never be added to the game sadly because reasons.

Been talking about the same thing for years now and yet still here we are but at least I'm glad that other people have the same idea as me.

Those reasons being faction design.
There's a reason the Pershing is the way it is, what with a limit and no ability to decrew. The faction was designed with strength and weakness. The weakness being not having a Panther type vehicle. The strengths being high mobility, firepower, the ability to self heal armour and an ungodly supply of smoke for maneuvering.

USF are not supposed to outlast the enemy armour they are supposed to out maneuvering them. Okw is meant to outlast and they notably have the hardest time keeping their armour in repair (due to expensive engineers), not the easiest like USF (whom every tank IS an engineer)

Those reasons being faction design.
There's a reason the Pershing is the way it is, what with a limit and no ability to decrew. The faction was designed with strength and weakness.

Doctrines are theoretically meant to offer alternatives that complement faction design.
The KV-1 is one of the most durable tanks in game, heavies excluded. The Soviets are meant to use cheap tanks to cover tank destroyers, but some doctrines offer different options.
Ostheer is meant to use high quality infantry with 4 entities but can also use Osttruppen, a cons sidegrade.
Giving the Easy 8 "Jumbo" stats would be fine imho as long as it's correctly priced

Those reasons being faction design.

Theoretically german weapons were designed to deal with 6 man squads while allied weapons had to deal with 4 man squads at the same time. That was the original design. With new factions and changes to the EFA factions you have four man squads on allied side and sixth man squads on axis side (PFs with G43, Ostruppen...). Just one example for faction design that got violated in multiple ways since release of the game. Many of this violations are doctrinal, some are even nondoctrinal.

Theoretically german weapons were designed to deal with 6 man squads while allied weapons had to deal with 4 man squads at the same time. That was the original design. With new factions and changes to the EFA factions you have four man squads on allied side and sixth man squads on axis side (PFs with G43, Ostruppen...). Just one example for faction design that got violated in multiple ways since release of the game. Many of this violations are doctrinal, some are even nondoctrinal.

That is a myth. It is not the weapons but the effective HP of infatry that is different. That is why conscripts start 1.09 target size and grenadier with 0.91

Let's stick to the topic, shall we:

M4A3 Sherman E8
The E8 is having a number of its changes reverted. The improvements mainly helped the unit's performance eagainst medium tanks which it has no issues with, but the increased price and and 45 range do not help the unit enough against heavier vehicles. To solve the issue with this unit's AT performance in the late-game veterancy 1 has been changed to give the E8 additional penetration and range to help fend off heavier vehicles at a distance when used in a supporting role. Its reload speed at veterancy has also been increased due to the tank's long reload time and lose of Radio Net.

Veterancy 1: Focused Gunnery replaces Radio Net
Focused Gunnery: Toggled ability. Increases range by 10 and improves penetration by 20%, but decreases speed, rotation rate, and acceleration/deceleration by 25%. 5 Second delay before range and weapon penetration bonuses activate.
Veterancy 3 reload modifier from -20% to -30%
Price change reverted; restored to 380 manpower and 140 fuel
Range changes reverted from 45 to 40

I love the idea of a mini hull down as vet 1 ability. Can OST get these too?

The Easy 8 changes look weird
The changelog doesn't mention if there's a deactivation time for Focused Gunnery.
Seems like a no brainer to pop it whenever you fight unless you are chasing down infantry

Definitely the first patch I've been optimistic for the USF changes.

Really excited to try the M3 in Rifle Company. Its overshadowed by the WC51 in mechanized, but it has a real chance to be useful there. Advanced Infantry Equipment is now stacked as a doc, and about as heavily loaded down as a single doc point can be.

Thanks for standardizing the CAS Loiter costs. Its always driven me nuts how the prices are all over the place.

Combined Arms is back, I just dunno if its enough to save the 76 spam, but time will tell.

The changes to the E8 are all over the place. As far as I understand it, its back to being its old self with a new Vet1 ability. It wasn't really a bad tank in its original form, the biggest problem was its anti infantry, these changes seem to be about making it better vs Panthers, which I'm not sure is the right direction.

Raid Tactics changes are ok. I feel like most of the fast cap abilities could be balanced purely around cooldown, as their impact is fairly minimal for a doc point. Recon would really love to get its paratroopers cheaper, but I guess its the price of not being Airborne.

I'm hoping to see some continued changes for the USF doc options, the Brit Changes have become increasingly aggressive (in a good way) as the patches have gone along, and I'm hoping the US changes follow suite.

Doctrines are theoretically meant to offer alternatives that complement faction design.
The KV-1 is one of the most durable tanks in game, heavies excluded. The Soviets are meant to use cheap tanks to cover tank destroyers, but some doctrines offer different options.
Ostheer is meant to use high quality infantry with 4 entities but can also use Osttruppen, a cons sidegrade.
Giving the Easy 8 "Jumbo" stats would be fine imho as long as it's correctly priced

Doctrines offer alternatives but no real breaking of the rules so to speak. Ostroppen are indeed 6 man squads for ost, but their combat potential is very low. They offer a manpower effecient ALTERNATIVE but doesn't alter the way the faction is played in the end. You will still be leaning on team weapons and conserving your armour.

The kv-1 isn't out of line of soviet design either, as they were designed to have durable doctrinal options since the inception. There are no counter measures to balance HAVING to have squishy armour, it's just whst their stock kit has. T34s being the way they are leave room for doctrinal alternative of superior quality as was intended. By design.

USF was designed SPECIFICALLY to accommodate for inlu having squishy armour. Its a core of their design offset by mobility and the ability to self heal.

If you want to see what changes with no regard for faction design looks like take a gander at the brits. A fucking mess is what you end up with.
You can't simply have work around for factional weaknesses without addressing how faction strengths play in.
This is why I will never support conscripts getting a machinegun upgrade. They are meant to outlast, not outfight
Just like the USF armour is supposed to out maneuver not outlasta kv-1 that can heal itself is a horrible horrible idea... Slap the best TD in the game behind it and you might as well delete all the other commanders...

Those reasons being faction design.
There's a reason the Pershing is the way it is, what with a limit and no ability to decrew. The faction was designed with strength and weakness. The weakness being not having a Panther type vehicle. The strengths being high mobility, firepower, the ability to self heal armour and an ungodly supply of smoke for maneuvering.

USF are not supposed to outlast the enemy armour they are supposed to out maneuvering them. Okw is meant to outlast and they notably have the hardest time keeping their armour in repair (due to expensive engineers), not the easiest like USF (whom every tank IS an engineer)

Right, well "faction design" would have been relevant a few years ago but I doubt it's so anymore.

Simple reason is change, new balance/design focus and so on and so forth.

Most basic example would be the OKW, which were designed to have only 75% from what I remember of resource generation compared to other Armies with their mech HQ providing a conversion of fuel to ammo and vice versa, no stock MG, you could only call in a 34 from either the Luftwaffe or Fortifications doctrine, stock Sturmtiger instead of the Panzer IV Ausf J/H and you get the idea.

Also the USF originally wasn't intended to have a heavy tank from the looks of things and yet here is the Pershing, a late war US heavy tank that saw extremely limited combat in 1945 while the Sherman Jumbo was deployed sometime in 1944 with at all 250 of it's produced vehicles seeing action with various different armored units, the most famous of which would of course be the 2nd and 3rd Armored Divisions, "Cobra King" which had the first in Bastogne sign on it's side that relieved the 101st Airborne at the Battle of the Bulge being from this formation.

So again no, I don't agree with the excuse of faction design anymore, I just think it's shortsightedness and the fact that there is a huge missed opportunity here for a lot of new and interesting units to be introduced, stuff like the Wespe or Grille as self-propelled artillery units for the Axis being some others as well as the M4A4 Shermans for the UKF maybe, 17 pounder Achilles, Archer and probably a lot more.

The Easy 8 changes look weird
The changelog doesn't mention if there's a deactivation time for Focused Gunnery.
Seems like a no brainer to pop it whenever you fight unless you are chasing down infantry

It enables stand off for the E8, but it cant be used to chase down Panthers and the E8 will still die to a Blitzed Panther dive. Now it shouldnt get poked to death by the Panther. I need to check if this lets the E8 out poke the Panther.

E8 has pretty crappy AI, especially vs schreck blobs, yet its supposed to be a generalist tank. Im still advocating for the Cromwell AoE to punish infantry rushing the E8.

Or pull its health up to 800 so it survives 7 schrecks instead of just 6.