TD is not a reckon vehicle and thus it should not get a vet 1 reckon ability.
(edited to removed quoted part and corresponding response since the post I quote from was moderated)
It fits the dual role or dual use of the faction nicely.
Should the SU85's vision ability be nerfed/removed
24 Mar 2021, 21:21 PM
#22
Posts: 1289
It fits the dual role or dual use of the faction nicely.
24 Mar 2021, 21:33 PM
#23
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
It fits the dual role or dual use of the faction nicely.
The idea behind the "dual role" the some Soviet unit had was that they would average in both roles and might had made some sense back in day when SU-85 had an average gun.
Currently SU-85 has one of the best AT gun in game and it a good TD so it does not need a secondary role, especially with an reckon ability that is superior to abilities some reckon vehicles get.
24 Mar 2021, 22:19 PM
#24
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
The idea behind the "dual role" the some Soviet unit had was that they would average in both roles and might had made some sense back in day when SU-85 had an average gun.
Yeah and the average gun made sense before, and it doesn't now because of the armor values it has to fight. They overbuffed it with the pen bonuses, which they recently addressed. They also reduced focus sight recently, but you still think it's OP?
Currently SU-85 has one of the best AT gun in game and it a good TD so it does not need a secondary role, especially with an reckon ability that is superior to abilities some reckon vehicles get.
It is not "superior". It has a longer max range, but in a tiny cone and it comes with significant movement penalty
You can't really compare it to recon vehicles at all, they aren't locked behind t4 and don't cost 130 fuel. That matters a lot here because you're putting that investment at risk everytime you use this "superior" ability. It's not a good comparison to make at all
24 Mar 2021, 23:09 PM
#25
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yeah and the average gun made sense before, and it doesn't now because of the armor values it has to fight. They overbuffed it with the pen bonuses, which they recently addressed. They also reduced focus sight recently, but you still think it's OP?
Su-85 main in no way average. The unit is an effective TD and thus it does not need secondary role as reckon vehicle.
Vet bonus penetration/focus sight changes where minor nerf. If you want to talk generally about SU-85 and it performance I suggest you start a thread about.
It is not "superior". It has a longer max range, but in a tiny cone and it comes with significant movement penalty
You can't really compare it to recon vehicles at all, they aren't locked behind t4 and don't cost 130 fuel. That matters a lot here because you're putting that investment at risk everytime you use this "superior" ability. It's not a good comparison to make at all
Pls read more carefully before responding.
"Focused Sight" is not the vet 1 ability of SU-85, "Tracking" is and tracking is actually better than "Infantry awareness" and "Detection mod" (available to 222/IRHT).
25 Mar 2021, 00:37 AM
#26
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Su-85 main in no way average. The unit is an effective TD and thus it does not need secondary role as reckon vehicle.
It wasn't saying it's average. I was talking about its old "average gun", which you brought up in the post I was quoting
I do not want to talk generally about the su85 performance, I think it's fine. I responded to something that you mentioned
"Focused Sight" is not the vet 1 ability of SU-85, "Tracking" is and tracking is actually better than "Infantry awareness" and "Detection mod" (available to 222/IRHT).
I'm aware of which ability is which, I thought you were talking about stacking the two of them together, because you also mentioned that in this thread....
25 Mar 2021, 06:46 AM
#27
Posts: 1289
The idea behind the "dual role" the some Soviet unit had was that they would average in both roles and might had made some sense back in day when SU-85 had an average gun.
Currently SU-85 has one of the best AT gun in game and it a good TD so it does not need a secondary role, especially with an reckon ability that is superior to abilities some reckon vehicles get.
How is it supirior when focused sight slows it down puts its sight in a cone at the cost its 360° awarenes and has a cooldown, Compared to 360 extra view when static and not getting slowed down?
Not saying its bad, but supirior is not the right word.
Compared to other td's the su85 is basic but good. It doesnt have high hp high armour nor high speed/mobility it doesnt have high alpha damage ability it doesnt have ai or a turret unlike other td's. It has a secondary ability with downsides to it. It also doesnt have a good stock medium to defend it.
25 Mar 2021, 07:01 AM
#28
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
It wasn't saying it's average. I was talking about its old "average gun", which you brought up in the post I was quoting
It is pretty simply so I am not sure why you are confused.
When SU-85 was average one could argue that it could follow the design of time and have a secondary role as reckon especially since it was available with T-70. Once it become a good TD and the faction designed change it no longer has reason to have a secondary role.
I do not want to talk generally about the su85 performance, I think it's fine. I responded to something that you mentioned
If you do not want to generally speak about SU-85 I would suggest not to ask me it is OP on not.
I'm aware of which ability is which, I thought you were talking about stacking the two of them together, because you also mentioned that in this thread....
My posts are quite clear:
Focused vision should be changed since it stacks with tracking and Soviet already have great reckon tools.
A SU-85 with focus sight/tracking has better los than IRHT...
The ability should me move to vet 1, (SU-85 has little reason to have trucking to begin with) and become timed instead of toggle.
Because a TD should not have an ability that is a better versions of the 222's"Infantry Awareness" ability.
If one read them carefully it pretty clear that I have only compared tracking with infatry awareness and not with focus sight as you understood.
25 Mar 2021, 07:05 AM
#29
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
How is it supirior when focused sight slows it down puts its sight in a cone at the cost its 360° awarenes and has a cooldown, Compared to 360 extra view when static and not getting slowed down?
Not saying its bad, but supirior is not the right word.
Read post #28 or original posts, any comparison I have made is between tracking and infatry awareness and not between infatry awareness and tracking.
Compared to other td's the su85 is basic but good. It doesnt have high hp high armour nor high speed/mobility it doesnt have high alpha damage ability it doesnt have ai or a turret unlike other td's. It has a secondary ability with downsides to it. It also doesnt have a good stock medium to defend it.
If it is "good" (and I can argue it is one of the most cost efficient TDs) and not "average" it does not need a secondary role. If you want to talk generally about SU-85 I suggest you start a thread about it.
25 Mar 2021, 07:47 AM
#30
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
It is pretty simply so I am not sure why you are confused.
When SU-85 was average one could argue that it could follow the design of time and have a secondary role as reckon especially since it was available with T-70. Once it become a good TD and the faction designed change it no longer has reason to have a secondary role.
Lol this is not the confusing part Vipper.... You misunderstood what I meant by average, that's all I was explaining
If you do not want to generally speak about SU-85 I would suggest not to ask me it is OP on not.
I wasn't asking you if it was OP in general. Was asking about the sight
My posts are quite clear:
If one read them carefully it pretty clear that I have only compared tracking with infatry awareness and not with focus sight as you understood.
As I just said you also compared both of the abilities to the IRHT. You included the quote right there. You didn't specify an ability when you were talking about 222, so it was not as clear as you think
Either way, I'll say again you can't compare abilities on light recon vehicles to those of a casemate TD on a different faction. I still don't know what you're trying to achieve with that comparison
25 Mar 2021, 08:03 AM
#31
Posts: 132
Even a Puma can flank and easily kill an unguarded SU-85, it needs extended vision.
25 Mar 2021, 09:01 AM
#32
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Lol this is not the confusing part Vipper.... You misunderstood what I meant by average, that's all I was explaining
I wasn't asking you if it was OP in general. Was asking about the sight
As I just said you also compared both of the abilities to the IRHT. You included the quote right there. You didn't specify an ability when you were talking about 222, so it was not as clear as you think
Either way, I'll say again you can't compare abilities on light recon vehicles to those of a casemate TD on a different faction. I still don't know what you're trying to achieve with that comparison
Ok at this point you are simply refusing to accept that what you have responded to has little to with I have post.
I have made clear suggestion and explained the reason behind them. The path you have chosen is non constructive and I am not going to follow you in it.
25 Mar 2021, 09:02 AM
#33
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Even a Puma can flank and easily kill an unguarded SU-85, it needs extended vision.
All case mate TD are susceptible to flank when unsupported.
25 Mar 2021, 09:11 AM
#34
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Ok at this point you are simply refusing to accept that what you have responded to has little to with I have post.
What are you talking about? I said you can't compare the su85s abilities to those of light recon vehicles. That has everything to do with what you posted
I was just explaining why the initial comparison was unclear to me. But I'm also questioning the point of it in the first place for the topic. I don't think the quality of 222 or IRHT scouting should mean anything for su85
25 Mar 2021, 09:25 AM
#35
Posts: 1273
I also don't think that the abilities of the 222 or IRHT mean anything for the SU85. Why are you Vipper constantly deflecting the questions and answers despite you being the one bringing up that subject? It's very confusing. No need to get personal if you're very unclear about how 222 and IRHT are related to this TD. I don't understand your reasoning either. You want to nerf the SU85 because of some scouting units in the ost/okw roaster? Including the IRHT which had map hacking qualities through obstacles?
25 Mar 2021, 09:29 AM
#36
Posts: 570 | Subs: 1
Its stupid when combined with the vet ability. Allows you to see acrosd the map.
25 Mar 2021, 09:38 AM
#38
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Its stupid when combined with the vet ability. Allows you to see acrosd the map.
True. It actually has superior vision to that of the IRHT...
25 Mar 2021, 10:12 AM
#39
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Its stupid when combined with the vet ability. Allows you to see acrosd the map.
The vet ability was nerfed years ago to prevent exactly that.
Looks like you haven't used that combination in at least 2 years and with focused sight, its even less now if you try to stack.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
25 Mar 2021, 10:14 AM
#40
Posts: 5279
True. It actually has superior vision to that of the IRHT...
To be fair the IRHT has been nerfed so hard its effectively been removed from the game so its not a great metric.
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