Brummbar performance

A simple cost increase by +10F or a small speed nerf and I'd call it good. The brummbar is really difficult to deal with when it's behind shot blockers over crucial points like center VP on redball. In those situations it's basically impossible to kill against a decent player without a complete breakthrough.

Don't think that making a low mobility vehicle with one of the shortest range even slower is good idea.

And many people complain about it ability to defend (and not attack) where mobility is less important(although it a SturmPanzer and designed to help in attacks).

Imo what has to change it offensive properties, increase projectile speed reduce AOE and go from there.

So the balance team wont be touching the Brumbar then I take it as its balanced?

I never speak for the team unless I explicitly state so. This is my own opinion.

Don't think that making a low mobility vehicle with one of the shortest range even slower is good idea.

And many people complain about it ability to defend (and not attack) where mobility is less important(although it a SturmPanzer and designed to help in attacks).

Imo what has to change it offensive properties, increase projectile speed reduce AOE and go from there.

imo no change is needed. it has been just nerfed
efforts to spend on other units.

Don't think that making a low mobility vehicle with one of the shortest range even slower is good idea.

And many people complain about it ability to defend (and not attack) where mobility is less important(although it a SturmPanzer and designed to help in attacks).

Imo what has to change it offensive properties, increase projectile speed reduce AOE and go from there.

The Brummbar has decent speed, especially if you consider that it still is a good HP/high armor unit. Only it's rotation is lacking but for turretless vehicles still one of the best.

imo no change is needed. it has been just nerfed
efforts to spend on other units.

You mean that pathetic -10 armour? That's not a real nerf, just a checkmark to put in the change log.

Cromwell yes, but that's obvious.

ATGs not so much.
Vet 0 ATGs have a 62-75% of penetrating a vet 0 Brummbar at max range (M1 using Sabot).
At vet 3 they have 78-85% of penetrating a vet 2 Brummbar at max range.
ZiS being the weakest, 6-pounder in the middle and M1 with Sabot having the highest chance.


Generally, two spaced out ATGs are enough to keep it at bay and will definitely out trade it in a (isolated) head-on engagement.

Fortunatly with the recent raise in power of computor grafic cards we're not fighting on a excel spreadsheet anymore. In real game 62-78% is rather a poor statistic for a unit that is specifically designed to counter tanks and highly vulnerable to anything else. Even more when you have to pay munition for it.

75% still mean you can shot 25 times in a row and not score a penetration shot and still reach the 75% chance. But more realistically on a 5-10 seconds engagement means that you can bounced 2 or 3 times and see the brumbar, to which those statistics doesn't apply, always decrew your ATG in two shots. Here there isn't even the question of manual targeting with the brumbar since the ATG can't realisticaly move to mitigate the damage and its shield don't stop the shell.

The problem with the brumbar is that there isn't an in between alternative to ATG and Tank destroyers since medium tanks suffer worst penetration value making them during a prolonged engagement easy target to the inevitable pak park behind the Brumbar.

At the end, dealing with a brumbar is mostly about dealing with the pak wall and the rest of the Ostheer army with Rocket arty and then finishing the Brumbar before it finish you.

The Brummbar has decent speed, especially if you consider that it still is a good HP/high armor unit. Only it's rotation is lacking but for turretless vehicles still one of the best.

yes but as you said no turret, and also slow manual aim time and reload and 35 range,

it needs to move in and out faster than ATG and 60TD with twice its range.

and i believe brumbar needs to be stationary for its rounds to land near where you click

Fortunatly with the recent raise in power of computor grafic cards we're not fighting on a excel spreadsheet anymore. In real game 62-78% is rather a poor statistic for a unit that is specifically designed to counter tanks and highly vulnerable to anything else. Even more when you have to pay munition for it.

75% still mean you can shot 25 times in a row and not score a penetration shot and still reach the 75% chance. But more realistically on a 5-10 seconds engagement means that you can bounced 2 or 3 times and see the brumbar, to which those statistics doesn't apply, always decrew your ATG in two shots. Here there isn't even the question of manual targeting with the brumbar since the ATG can't realisticaly move to mitigate the damage and its shield don't stop the shell.

The problem with the brumbar is that there isn't an in between alternative to ATG and Tank destroyers since medium tanks suffer worst penetration value making them during a prolonged engagement easy target to the inevitable pak park behind the Brumbar.

At the end, dealing with a brumbar is mostly about dealing with the pak wall and the rest of the Ostheer army with Rocket arty and then finishing the Brumbar before it finish you.

ost have it worse when dealing with kv tanks and churchills....

You mean that pathetic -10 armour? That's not a real nerf, just a checkmark to put in the change log.

it is real hard nerf. when against 60td with almost 2x range, and faster rof and speed.

bunker buster cost muni too

maybe you don't a-move your infantry blob? spread them out? i mean ost 5 men grens got a huge nerf, what's left to hold back allies blob rush? lmg grens? lol

sounds like you just want balance to continue favor terminator allies blob supported with ATG wall

yes but as you said no turret, and also slow manual aim time and reload and 35 range,

it needs to move in and out faster than ATG and 60TD with twice its range.

and i believe brumbar needs to be stationary for its rounds to land near where you click

But that is good. Brummbar is exceptionally strong frontally while weak for flanking. That is good design. Of course it has weaknesses, but it is also the almost only unit that can stand in front of an ATG (its supposed counter) and wipe the floor with it.
My point was that for casemats, the Brummbar has decent rotation and in general it has decent mobility for a heavy unit.
The Brummbar needs to be stationary to fire while manually targeting. It can fire on the move like any other unit. I don't know the multiplier by heart, but it has such a low base scatter that moving the unit should not do much.

it is. when against 60td with almost 2x range, and faster rof and speed.

maybe you don't a-move your infantry blob? spread them out? i mean ost 5 men grens got a huge nerf, what's left to hold back allies blob rush? lmg grens? lol

You really don't play anything except axis and even when you play axis your obviously don't play on any level that would net you a decent problem solving COH brain.

"when against 60 TD with almost 2x range" --> infantry moves in front of TDs and if you're skilled at all, you will be able to nuke infantry while keeping away from those pesky 60 TDs (which are not 60 range because of the brummbar but because of other weaknesses).

5 man grens got a deserved nerf. Again, if you considered them not OP then you obviously needed their OP status to win anything (eg. a good player can win with worse units while a bad one needs to only exclusively play with the best ones, that's why in low rank games you'll se a much narrower unit roster).

Holding back any allies blob rush is with the following:

Early game: MGs or mortar + infantry behind cover or flanking with a bait
Mid game: Stuka, werfer, MGs, LVs
Late game: Anything

Again, you're clearly biased, which is not condemning. However, you also have very little knowledge of how to play COH2 because you compare apples and oranges, have no clue on how to play with apples vs pears and consider -10 armor on brummbar a considerable nerf.

The bias part I understand, but you really need to play vs better opponents to force yourself to be flexible with the axis.

EDIT: Considering "weaker" or "stronger" units. There are no "weaker" or "stronger" units just units that require less micro and have better stats than the opponents "counterpart" (if one exists). If you really think that allies have stronger units or that axis have stronger tanks or that any faction, axis or ally is in any way OP, play them and you'll get a sense.

You obviously play against people that also have no clue and hence can't judge on the faction's weaknesses.

yes but as you said no turret, and also slow manual aim time and reload and 35 range,

it needs to move in and out faster than ATG and 60TD with twice its range.

and i believe brumbar needs to be stationary for its rounds to land near where you click

It one or at worst case, two shots ALL infantry units in game with exceptionally high accuracy.
It does not need to be long in combat to deliver a blow making a difference.

I recommend re-watching casts of last 2v2 tournament, where it completely dominated allied infantry and ATGs if you have doubts about its performance.

But that is good. Brummbar is exceptionally strong frontally while weak for flanking. That is good design. Of course it has weaknesses, but it is also the almost only unit that can stand in front of an ATG (its supposed counter) and wipe the floor with it.
My point was that for casemats, the Brummbar has decent rotation and in general it has decent mobility for a heavy unit.
The Brummbar needs to be stationary to fire while manually targeting. It can fire on the move like any other unit. I don't know the multiplier by heart, but it has such a low base scatter that moving the unit should not do much.

that's all brumbar is, an effective late game infantry counter. effective but hardly op.

ATG are not it's direct counter. imo it is medium tanks. like all casemate, once flanked, its too slow and take hits like an abused spouse. ATG and 60TD are support that helps.

its not like pak is a direct counter to KV tanks and churchill.

also i would say ost grens and pgren have a harder time decrewing allies ATG....

It one or at worst case, two shots ALL infantry units in game with exceptionally high accuracy.
It does not need to be long in combat to deliver a blow making a difference.

I recommend re-watching casts of last 2v2 tournament, where it completely dominated allied infantry and ATGs if you have doubts about its performance.

i watch plenty on youtube and hardly dominating...

i watch plenty on youtube and hardly dominating...

Stop watching random 4v4 games uploaded by clueless, 15 APM wehraboos then and watch some where people with a clue use them... I know the former are much more relatable, but latter will show you reality you struggle to recognize.

You really don't play anything except axis and even when you play axis your obviously don't play on any level that would net you a decent problem solving COH brain.

"when against 60 TD with almost 2x range" --> infantry moves in front of TDs and if you're skilled at all, you will be able to nuke infantry while keeping away from those pesky 60 TDs (which are not 60 range because of the brummbar but because of other weaknesses).

5 man grens got a deserved nerf. Again, if you considered them not OP then you obviously needed their OP status to win anything (eg. a good player can win with worse units while a bad one needs to only exclusively play with the best ones, that's why in low rank games you'll se a much narrower unit roster).

Holding back any allies blob rush is with the following:

Early game: MGs or mortar + infantry behind cover or flanking with a bait
Mid game: Stuka, werfer, MGs, LVs
Late game: Anything

Again, you're clearly biased, which is not condemning. However, you also have very little knowledge of how to play COH2 because you compare apples and oranges, have no clue on how to play with apples vs pears and consider -10 armor on brummbar a considerable nerf.

The bias part I understand, but you really need to play vs better opponents to force yourself to be flexible with the axis.

EDIT: Considering "weaker" or "stronger" units. There are no "weaker" or "stronger" units just units that require less micro and have better stats than the opponents "counterpart" (if one exists). If you really think that allies have stronger units or that axis have stronger tanks or that any faction, axis or ally is in any way OP, play them and you'll get a sense.

You obviously play against people that also have no clue and hence can't judge on the faction's weaknesses.

i watch plenty of tightrope cast games, if brumbar is so dominant, why am i not seeing loop sided ost win rates?

The Brummbar has decent speed, especially if you consider that it still is a good HP/high armor unit.

Top speed is only one factor of a unit mobility even more so in the case of Case mates.
With out rotation and acceleration top speed does not say much.

Only it's rotation is lacking but for turretless vehicles still one of the best.

Stug-E/G both have superior rotation, mostly long range TD have worse rotation and they do not have to navigate the field to get in firing range. Another reason for it is possibly to make these TD more susceptible to flanks.

Generally speaking Brumbar does feel rather clunky to maneuver. It mobility I would say is inline with dozer 105 that even comes with turret.

75% still mean you can shot 25 times in a row and not score a penetration shot and still reach the 75% chance.

sorry, but i don't think you understand how statistics, or in this case, chance works.

Generally speaking Brumbar does feel rather clunky to maneuver. It mobility I would say is inline with dozer 105 that even comes with turret.

errr... no. I have been exclusively using the brummbar for a few weeks now, and nobody who ever used the brummbar extensively can conclude that it is clunky to manoeuvre. The speedy brumbar responses were even a heavy part of the recent cheating investigation. Clunky to maneuver is the sturmtiger, but Brummbar, ooooh no. You couldn't be again anymore wrong.