General USF Commander overhaul

Don't understand this argument. A vet 3 blob of everything can delete stuff.

The thing is, 76mm have universal shells, unlike the 75mm, and have crazy rof with radio net. This tank is also basically a premium medium. The issue is that you are megacharging the USF roster by allowing them this option. This tank is way too powerful to be stock, especially combined with a CalliOP. The reason is that it deletes any pak40/rak counterplay. Consider this, you have 2-3 76mms and a CalliOP lategame. Your opponent has chosen to rely on double pak40s. You use the tactical support recon plane, spot the double pak40s, barrage them with CalliOP, then charge in with your premium mediums and infantry. This is way too powerful. If USF in live tries to do that, they'll have to use the 75mm M4s that are stock, which need to switch shells, adding a heavy micro and rof burden, as well as are significantly weaker against enemy medium tanks. 2-3 76mm M4s can easily beat 2 P4Js, while 2-3 75mm M4s will probably lose.

Theoretical situation, sure, but the point is the 76mm is too good a vehicle to be stock, especially since it would allow USF to get other powerful doctrine picks such as Tactical Support.

Please don't turn pathfinder beacons into forward retreat points, the Soviet Airbourne ones are already borderline game breaking abuse in 2v2. Just limit them to 1-2 on the field at all times and they're fine.

Theoretical situation, sure, but the point is the 76mm is too good a vehicle to be stock, especially since it would allow USF to get other powerful doctrine picks such as Tactical Support.

That's +50 popcap and almost 500 fuel for 4 units. Possible to achieve in teamgame but that's barely an argument since anything is achievable in teamgame.

Imo The solution is within the M4A3, we have a tank with dedicated shell, High explosive shells can't pen anything more armoured than a truck, can't even pen the Luch which is good design. High velocity shells should be the opposite and able to kick ass vs Pz4 which have all around ammo.

There is also the unexplored solution of T1/T2 command post dedicated buff to sherman. T1 could gives an AT buff to the sherman since T1>T3 lack ATgun and T2 could give AI buff by cutting some of the AI shell actual stat and getting them back requiring T2.

This would give another interest to full tech as USF.

That's +50 popcap and almost 500 fuel for 4 units. Possible to achieve in teamgame but that's barely an argument since anything is achievable in teamgame.

Not true, I've very often seen USF players in lategame 1v1 have 3-4 vehicles. It's definitely not uncommon.

There is also the unexplored solution of T1/T2 command post dedicated buff to sherman. T1 could gives an AT buff to the sherman since T1>T3 lack ATgun and T2 could give AI buff by cutting some of the AI shell actual stat and getting them back requiring T2.

Yes but the tiers are not mutually exclusive and you can even go both tiers right away with double officer builds. This would be very difficult to balance.

Not true, I've very often seen USF players in lategame 1v1 have 3-4 vehicles. It's definitely not uncommon.

And their opponent just with 2 pak and a shrek squad? As usual if you manage to let your opponent build such force on 1vs1 and you're naked you've probably already lost anyway.

Yes but the tiers are not mutually exclusive and you can even go both tiers right away with double officer builds. This would be very difficult to balance.

Which delay the 1st sherman by 50 fuel and we're talking about two different kind of shells that need 6 seconds to switch. it may become a viable strat but I doubt that would be OP.

And their opponent just with 2 pak and a shrek squad? As usual if you manage to let your opponent build such force on 1vs1 and you're naked you've probably already lost anyway.

???????????????

When did I ever say that? wot

Double pak40 and 2-3 vehicles is a very common Ostheer build. Please read carefully before arguing.

There is no such thing as a "heavy tank destroyer", to begin with. The closest thing might be a FireFly, but even its is debatable, its still effective against all targets, same with SU-85. They are more vulnerable to mediums, but thats it.

Even in theory, if you lower RoF of Jackson it will achieve nothing. It still will be better then any sherman, if you need to counter any type of tanks.

Or they cooldown for Tank destroyers and make them fire slower at closer ranges so that if a Jackson gets flanked by a p4 it has to wait more time between shot than p4 and you know be countered.

Or they cooldown for Tank destroyers and make them fire slower at closer ranges so that if a Jackson gets flanked by a p4 it has to wait more time between shot than p4 and you know be countered.

Well firstly, I'm not really sure its possible to make X unit fire slower if there is another one near it. It might be doable by creating some sort of invisible auras, but it sounds way complicated to begin with.

And secondly, ROF isnt the main thing making Jackson so good. Its accuracy on the move, speed, turret rotation, turret iself, range. Pretty much any aspect of Jackson (aside from armor) is making Jackson so powerfull compared to other TDs. I mean, if you litteraly wont make Jackson ROF x2 slower (so PIV will shoot 2 times, while jackson will shot 1) it wont change anything.

But even with such changes, ppl will just kite with jackson. It will make it harded to micro, but ultimatly wont change anything for a good players, just make it really frustrating to use for mediocre players.

Only thing I agree is that greyhound should be bound to officer, that thing comes out way too late compared to other light vehicles.

Well firstly, I'm not really sure its possible to make X unit fire slower if there is another one near it. It might be doable by creating some sort of invisible auras, but it sounds way complicated to begin with.

And secondly, ROF isnt the main thing making Jackson so good. Its accuracy on the move, speed, turret rotation, turret iself, range. Pretty much any aspect of Jackson (aside from armor) is making Jackson so powerfull compared to other TDs. I mean, if you litteraly wont make Jackson ROF x2 slower (so PIV will shoot 2 times, while jackson will shot 1) it wont change anything.

But even with such changes, ppl will just kite with jackson. It will make it harded to micro, but ultimatly wont change anything for a good players, just make it really frustrating to use for mediocre players.

One can make TDs have higher TTK vs medium without affecting the TTK vs super heavies.

A) Lowering far accuracy will effect the shot vs medium more than it will effect shot vs super heavies.

B) Increasing damage but lowering ROF can be used to keep the number of shot the same vs meduim and the TTK about the same vs Super heavies.

da fuq is a super heavy? is there a secret Maus callin?

Current USF stock tanks are fine. Definitely no further additions are needed or swaps. 76mm is fine as a doctrinal tank. It's got better penetration drop, slightly lower AOE radius on "normal" shells (2 vs 2.5 on P4) and good overall stats. Like Jaeger said, it would make for a poor stock tank in a sense that it would be "too" good. Right now the Sherman's biggest weakness is the shell switch. If you want to have a good AI cannon, you absolutely need the HE shell and if you want to be able to penetrate tanks from the front, close up, you need penetrating shells. It all balances out.

In the commander department only Pershing needs a slight buff in the survivability department and E8 in the "role" department (eg, buff AI a bit or buff armor a bit, or w/e).
I don't think USF commanders need big reworks, just slight changes.

Seems this got discussed quite emotionally. Usually if some players say it is op as hell and other say this thing absolutely sucks it is well balanced ;-)
The basic idea was to add some tactical decision making to USF tank roster. Something that is missing atm.

Understand the faction before you change everything about it please.

Just to be clear I don't think that Sherman + Jackson isn't a working combination. It is just a bit lazy faction design to have one tank in roster with heavy AI damage and another one which counters pretty every tank at axis roster. This should have been changed long ago. The only way to do this is to add a tank which takes a part of both tanks. 76mm has less AI but more AT than M4A3 Sherman, while still being far behind at AT capabilites of Jackson. It would allow to go for different tactics. Right now it is one Sherman into one Jackson in pretty every game. In multiplayer there are multiple Jacksons usually.

ah yes, stock 76mm blobs with CalliOP will be very healthy for the game.

Take Urban assault company, build a M4A3 with upgraded 50.cal and dozer blade plus the option to fire WP shells and Smoke. Some would say that is the best Sherman in the game. For the late game add a Jackson, a Calliope and Rangers with triple super bazooka. Thats the game right now. Do you think this is somehow less powerful than combining 76mm Shermans with Calliope? I personally don't think so. In my proposal I removed the dozer blade and WP shell from Urban Assault and moved it to E8 commander.

Like Jaeger said, it would make for a poor stock tank in a sense that it would be "too" good. Right now the Sherman's biggest weakness is the shell switch. If you want to have a good AI cannon, you absolutely need the HE shell and if you want to be able to penetrate tanks from the front, close up, you need penetrating shells. It all balances out.

You could say exactly the same about 76mm. If you want to make some AI damage you need the standard shell, if you want to go for the armored target you want to have the armor piercing one which does pretty no AI damage at all. It the same system with the difference that both shells have a shift from AI to AT.
But as I said I don't think that USF tank roster ist too powerful or too weak, it is just a completely boring and predictable design. Add the fact that only three of nine Companies have a medium tank alternative. I personally like tactical decisions, but USF tank roster doesn't allow for it.

da fuq is a super heavy? is there a secret Maus callin?

According to the wreck value of the units we have:

Ultra Lights
Lights
Mediums
Advanced Mediums: Cmd PV, Panther, KV1, T3485...
Heavies: Tiger, TA, KV8, KV2, IS2, Churchill...
Super Heavies: KT, JT, ELE, ISU1



For OP: there's not gonna be such an overhaul, specially to non doctrinal options i'm afraid. That was the whole point of the last patch.

As far as the Jackson/non doc AT options goes, i think the only in scope option is to make the unit have 2 shell types (lower pen, hig acc, current rof vs mediums and an AP mode with higher pen, lower rof, even drastically if you consider increasing dmg to 200 per shell, and low accuracy).
I don't think 76mm or M10 are options at all as far as making them non doc.

Thats the game right now. Do you think this is somehow less powerful than combining 76mm Shermans with Calliope?

As if Dozer Shermans aren't completely stupid.

For fuck's sake, what are these garbage arguments?

It would allow to go for different tactics.

Yes, you pick a doctrine with the 76mm if you wanna go for those different tactics. That's why stuff is locked behind commanders.

As if Dozer Shermans aren't completely stupid.

For fuck's sake, what are these garbage arguments?

First of all I don't got rude at your comments. There is just no reason for it while discussing a point. Secondly I opposed your argument with a reference to an actual ingame situation that is in no way less powerful. It seems you don't like to get refuted. Is that the reason for my argument beeing garbage? Maybe we try to be polite and just discuss things. Thx.

That's not possible, they both need a commander slot in order to be called in separately. Unless you'd want to have it as a bundled drop, but that would defeat the main purpose of these drops (that you can skip one tech and call in the respective team weapon with the commander).

could you unlock them together and tie them to the pathfinder beacon?
you would lose out on the flexibility of calling them in anywhere but would gain a slot.

could you unlock them together and tie them to the pathfinder beacon?
you would lose out on the flexibility of calling them in anywhere but would gain a slot.

I don't see any reason to. Airborne is a really good commander.
The drops keep the other three top tier abilities in check while still being good abilities themselves.

It seems you don't like to get refuted.

There is no argument, both are overpowered, both Dozers are OP and should be nerfed and 76mm stock would be OP.

One can make TDs have higher TTK vs medium without affecting the TTK vs super heavies.

A) Lowering far accuracy will effect the shot vs medium more than it will effect shot vs super heavies.

B) Increasing damage but lowering ROF can be used to keep the number of shot the same vs meduim and the TTK about the same vs Super heavies.

It sounds good on paper, but when it comes to actual game I dont see how this can be properly implemented, because its a hell of a task to do right.

Because all this system will either requare consistency or it should be heavily RNG based.

Since slightly tweaking a ROF values (like T70 was brought to 2.6 reload always), wont cut it in such system and potentially requare a lot of work and testing to be done properly. Otherwise you either end up with a useless or batshit OP tds

Also faction roster should be taken into the consideration. I say Firefly is the closest to such TD design, but unlike USF\Sov UKF arent relying on TDs for their late game to begin with, so they can afford having such TDs. On the other hand Soviets and USF are relying on Jackson\SU85 (aside from AT guns) for their late game, because they dont have good AT medium outside of commanders to fight something fatter then PIV.

Hell even KV-1\8 is giving problems to Ostheer, because it almost shut downs whole T3, because AT guns arent that relyable vs Heavy tanks, if they are not massed.

There is no argument, both are overpowered, both Dozers are OP and should be nerfed and 76mm stock would be OP.

It is an argument as long as the facts leading to the argument exist. Okay lets pretend it doesn't exist, so that you don't have to apologize for beeing rude without reason. Being a top30 player and having a greater range comes with the responsibility to be more of a paragon, but that are just my two cents as a lower ranked player.

So back to topic: I do think that Calliope + 76mm "blobs" will be countered by JPIV, STuG or Panther play, while Jackson doesn't get countered by them. So there is a downside to the AI value of the 76mm (if compared to M36).
So yeah to conclude, thats the thing about decision making, all choices come with a downside. But atm there is just no decison making at USF nondoc T4 tank roster. You need AI, go for M4A3, you need AT go for Jackson...

The thing is, 76mm have universal shells, unlike the 75mm, and have crazy rof with radio net.

Both is not true.

Radio net isn't as potent as you said because it is bugged and gives the bonus only once. Yeah I do think a blob of vet1 76mm Shermans could be really strong if it would work correctly but that would be true for normal Shermans or E8s too.
Their shells aren't really more universal than the shells of a normal M4A3 as you said. Their shells are identically versus infantry and just have some penetration more. Same penetration at close distance, 10 penetration more at medium distance and 20 at long distance. At long, where the difference is the greatest, this is 66% penetration in comparison to 55% of M4A3 versus a regular Ostheer PZIV. Your shells will still bounce on a regulary basis. The biggest difference is that they shoot about 1,5 seconds faster of course. The shells itself are pretty similar, so either both are universal or none of them. If you want to go for high penetration you have to switch like the M4A3 switches for HE, but your main cannon loose its AI value by doing so and the switch takes roughly about 6 seconds if I remind correctly.
A 76mm is more expensive of course to make up for better RoF and slightly better penetration with standard shell.