My respond to the accusations

So you referring the game of Creativename and Rutra where Deadbolt and Flap won against them? Can we get the opinion about the opponnents? I tried to explain the CPM issue in my document and even put games where he plays against me with higher CPM. Where are the analysis of the replays? If u referring the game where they lost to borobadger and toyvendor and i really don't think they are high level 2v2 players. You never really presented me the actual evidence.

At no point have either myself or Toyvendor stated we are high level 2s players, however with respect to Deadbolt and Flap we are both significantly better than either of those players. The game in question I got totally outplayed, which I expect from you but not from Deadbolt, therefore I can say with certainty that you were account sharing at that time.

If you are suggesting that Deadbolt and Flap beat CN and Rutra then you are just digging a hole for yourself for no reason and creating a web of lies that you will eventually trip yourself up with. It would be better for yourself if you stopped trying to lie to people and tried some honesty to protect what little of your reputation you still have.

@Stormjaeger genuinely I was kind of expecting a lot of high level analysis from active players such as yourself that would show why I had to act. So thank for that, not because it conforms to our supicions but because you put the work in and committed to an opinion. More than can be said for the majority of the lynch mobs on both sides.

Lol okay dude, it was just to limit the post size... I read the whole thing

Im a casual player too, but it's not hard to understand why people who have money on the line might take it more seriously than me. Be it players or donors

Well here's another stupid question.

Why have money on a "competitive" and "esports ready" title full of RNG and bugs, unbalances and so forth in the first place.

I mean of course people will abuse bugs, use OP and unbalanced units and even cheat if they're desperate enough to win said money.

It breaks the basic "code" of gaming which is to play to have fun because it's meant for entertainment.

...informative stuff....

Thank you for doing this. Giving the context on why something was suspicious or not was a significant improvement over other posts that I'd seen on this.

Nevertheless, Seeking uses wasd to move the camera which registers as clicking, while Deadbolt doesn't, so there is some merit here to the accusations.

Assuming that we're getting the CPM values from cohdb.com, the site also shown in some evidence during this controversy, I think there may be a little bit of misinformation here.

cohdb.com doesn't include any camera movement commands in its CPM calculation. I've tested this with all possible ways to move the camera, and my calculated CPM was always 0.00. You can see a short demonstration here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxmkFsQTUcs

Moreover, I think CPM is almost completely unreliable for identifying an individual player in a single match. It's affected by external factors such as how good your opponent is, what the match was like (stalemate vs high action game), your mood, etc.

Just to piggyback on what I previously said about my own CPM varying wildly






I don't think only CPM in itself is capable of being considered hard proof. Additional factors should be considered, which in this case seem to be as Boro played vs the account Deadbolt and is highly convinced he faced Seeking.

I totally agree with what you said above, but cmon, bulat clearly wrote this

"The real sad thing about all of this is that coh2 is such a small community and yet some top players are being banned in that way."

So how can your response then be:
I don't think "Well, the community is too small to ban cheaters" is much of a defence, is it?"

"In that way" is not the part of the post I was taking issue with, it was the follow-on that was talking about Seeking being a "good player", and that this would then warrant a reduction in the length of a ban, or that the fact there aren't many "good players" should mean that the community can't really afford to ban people.

"I mean there are not that many players who play on such level. BTW seeking played vs isildur with webcam in finals, so he is top player for sure. How many people here can do 3-2 series vs isildur?" just seems to be some sort of appeal to emotion, rather than a meaningful argument. None of it matters.

Also: "Learn alphabet" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means in English, I assume it was a direct translation from Slovenian. I presume you meant "Learn to Read", though assuming I can't read because I'm interpreting a post differently to you is a little childish.

Seeking didn't cheat, even AE himself said that there are not enough evidence.

My point is that the whole story is terrible. And one of the top players got banned in such absurd way.

The conclusion isnt that "Seeking didn't cheat", it is currently "We're not sure the evidence is conclusive enough". There's an important distinction there, and it's all still being discussed, Stormjager's recent post being an example of that.

I agree that this "investigation" isnt exactly the cleanest operation going, but there doesn't seem to have been unjust action taken by A_E et al.

It breaks the basic "code" of gaming which is to play to have fun because it's meant for entertainment.

I play video games for fun. You can play video games fun. I don't think it's your or my place to judge the reasons other people play video games

Well here's another stupid question.

Why have money on a "competitive" and "esports ready" title full of RNG and bugs, unbalances and so forth in the first place.

I mean of course people will abuse bugs, use OP and unbalanced units and even cheat if they're desperate enough to win said money.

It breaks the basic "code" of gaming which is to play to have fun because it's meant for entertainment.

It's simple. Be more open minded. Those "codes" you infer are simple your own personal values.

Chess is "just" a tabletop game. It doesn't stop it from been a recognized as an Olympic sport. For some people it's just a hobby. Others dedicates their lives to study, teach it and play it.
And just because it's a centuries old game where it's supposed to challenge the intellect of 2 people, it doesn't stop it from having people at even master/GM level cheating.

Poker is full of RNG and there's millions on the line. For years it has been on TV, meaning there's a public for watching it.
There been RNG doesn't stop it from been competitive or having money on the line. Cardgames are a thing and they move millions (Magic, Hearthstone, LOL). Not sure how popular are they now but in the last years a new subgenre arise which is the Auto battlers which is even worse in the RNG aspect if you ask me.


Once you understand that entertainment is subjective, anything can be shaped to be competitive. And as long as there are people who want to compete and people who want to watch it, it means a scene can be created.
You'll be surprised if you knew that Farming Simulator or Google maps have/had competitions.

The RNG in hearthstone when I play makes coh2 RNG look like nothing.

The RNG in hearthstone when I play makes coh2 RNG look like nothing.

Nah you were temp banned for:

1) Admitting to playing on the pc and account of someone later to show to be a cheater. (The second part of that was revealed after the initial warning).

2) There being evidence of you playing on said account after the initial warning.

Well in "remaining silent" you closed channels of communication, not the wisest of moves. I'd say we're in a competition here to see who can make the unwisest move, like a spy thriller but with idiots on both sides.

I see no sense of banning at the first point, so I bought a knife, I borrowed it to a murderer, the murderer killed someone, now I am guilty? WTF

Sorry, AE, from those "privated message" sceenshot, you lost all your credibility.

You claimed to let him explain and repeal, claimed to be fair and rational, but ends up you don't even want spending one second on his document and even threatened Kimbo like this.

Oh, this drama....


Why can't we just put a webcam on Seaking screen and call it a day?

I play video games for fun. You can play video games fun. I don't think it's your or my place to judge the reasons other people play video games

It's simple. Be more open minded. Those "codes" you infer are simple your own personal values.

Chess is "just" a tabletop game. It doesn't stop it from been a recognized as an Olympic sport. For some people it's just a hobby. Others dedicates their lives to study, teach it and play it.
And just because it's a centuries old game where it's supposed to challenge the intellect of 2 people, it doesn't stop it from having people at even master/GM level cheating.

Poker is full of RNG and there's millions on the line. For years it has been on TV, meaning there's a public for watching it.
There been RNG doesn't stop it from been competitive or having money on the line. Cardgames are a thing and they move millions (Magic, Hearthstone, LOL). Not sure how popular are they now but in the last years a new subgenre arise which is the Auto battlers which is even worse in the RNG aspect if you ask me.


Once you understand that entertainment is subjective, anything can be shaped to be competitive. And as long as there are people who want to compete and people who want to watch it, it means a scene can be created.
You'll be surprised if you knew that Farming Simulator or Google maps have/had competitions.

I am open minded, that's why I accept that we each have our own separate and personal opinions to which we're all entitled to.

I'm just saying my opinion on it because honestly with a few exceptions of like for example SC2 every game that has RNG heavily involved in to with a competitive scene where there's money on the line has been a colossal failure from what I've noticed and this is just another recent example of that.

Also from what I understand Poker is a game specifically made to involve money so...

I mean no other game from my understanding at least is designed around betting, Chess, Farming Simulator and so forth are all meant for entertainment and again in my opinion at least it's fine to be competitive about it, if you wish so, however when involving money the stakes are higher and thus the chance of people being desperate to win and thus do something against the rules and so forth in order to win also increases exponentially and becomes pretty much unavoidable.

So again just to sum up my thoughts in a few words, if people wish to be competitive in games meant for entertainment that's fine and that's their own choice, however if they still wish to be competitive with money involved in a heavily RNG dependent game, then again that's still their own choice to do so but it has a very high chance of ending badly because someone will probably want to win at all costs, quite literally.

There are plenty of justified critiques of AE and the refs. Even though some of the stuff gets blown way out of proportion. I understand that seekings defense is kinda "gloves off". But the way people have lost perspective of what is going on and the way this gets somehow turned around against AE is crazy.

It is still HIGHLY likely from a competent neutral perspective that seeking played on the Deadbolt account POST warning. It is painfully obvious and I'm just gonna go ahead and say that if you think otherwhise you're either biased or clueless, sorry. This means that it's also highly likely that seeking is still explicitly lying. His entire defense is at least in part bullshit. AE would make a fool of himself if he didn't ban seeking after all this dishonesty and disregard of the prior warning.

snip

Dude if you play TF2 you definitely do not represent the average COH2.ORG or coh2 player who is involved in this drama.

I think this basically explains the lack of understanding from your side.

i.e they (and I) are not casual players

Ive reviewed all the evidence, watched all of the videos relating to this issue and I feel
some obligation to state the following...

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As far as AE is concerned:

1. His number one priority for many years has been hosting and promoting respectable tournaments that are fair, as well as keeping the ML community money safe from either corruption or bad influences. His track record here is beyond contestation.

2. He did rush on some of his moves with this situation, which is bound to happen when a tournament is coming up soon, he has admitted to his mistake and apologized for it. Put yourself in his shoes when considering the speed at which these events happened. He could definitly have done better here.

3. Its not unusual for anyone (myself included) to get a hot head and say something you either dont mean or didnt intend to say the way you did. Cut people slack here on all sides, if you dont your not human.

4. This wasnt a unilateral move by AE, many people offered to analyze the data and vote on a conclusion, this wasnt a dictatorial move. If you think AE is targeting people to ban, please refer back to point 1.

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As far as Seeking is concrened:

1. His skills in COH are quite good, he has hepled test maps before and ive deeply analyzed some of his games for map design purposes. Not to mention his ML performance. Expect some decisions he makes in game to be well above average when you assume he is hacking. His skills in COH are beyond contestation.

2. Its clear this deadbolt guy is a bad influence here and should be considered as such. Past actions are the only thing anyone has to understand what someone will do in the future, this isnt up for debate.

3. Seekings response to the technical stuff is interesting and as far as I can tell his innocence is in a grey area. I do appreciate the lengths he went to, to try to show his innocence, some people wouldnt put in that effort and that should be considered. But given that the integrity of the ML and community money is top priority for the organizers, a suspension isnt unreasonable at all. A ban would be overkill here but that isnt this.

4. Seekings response to the personal stuff. Grow up. I dont mean to be harsh here but if you want to be seen as a reasonable rational person with some virtue, posting personal stuff when people are heated is the wrong way to go. Im sure you and them were going back and forth and stuff was said on both sides but you wont prove your COH innocence by showing how angry people can get at their weak moments. I do understand that surely you are emotional as well so posting these private conversation should also be seen as a weak moment by Seeking, hopefully one for which he apologizes for if he hasnt already.

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Conclusion:

The ML has been remarkably well run all things considered. Players should feel comfortable that the community is making attempts at self policing and that after this situation im sure any future allegations will be handled with more care. AE and others have already expressed the need for a more formal process that can be relied on in times of crisis instead of adhoc attempted solutions.

AE I know your reading this and I'm sure youve learned a lot from this, that is your greatest strength is your willingness to learn and press on.

Seeking, buddy i know your reading this too, you should sit back, relax and wait to get back into ML after your suspension is over, its okay that this happened. Dont let it drive you to make any more bad decisions, stay away from any deadbolt related COH interactions. Rebound from this and you will be seen as the godplayer in ML before ya know it.

Ive been under extreme RL work stress in recent weeks and after reading this thread it occured to me that this community has been a haven for me since 2006. I dont much enjoy seeing people fighting like this but with community money and personal reputations at risk its understandable that emotions get high. This community will to continue to be a haven of mine because we have so many kickass people here who bust ass to make awesome things happen weather its in game or mods or tournies, dont forget that fact. If anyone wants to discuss any points made here feel free to PM me on steam.

This drama will end, lets all collectively allow it to and move on. And lets all enjoy some more great COH times with the new patch that landed and the new patch on the way.

Much love

snip

+1 Well said!

I think by the end of the day, its just a stepping stone for better things to come.

[...]

[...]

instead of all the drama and personal attacks going on in this and the original thread, posts like this is what the discussion should revolve around. bravo and thanks a lot for sharing these thoughts!