My respond to the accusations

Doing a subjective opinion vs. opinion community vote without a procedure to go off was only ever an idea and a possibility discussed verbally, what was a certainty was the proposal I put to Seeking two days before the announcement at 3pm GMT on the 15th of March. https://i.imgur.com/Dx8srws.png

This was ignored.

The very deal u made while he was still setting up his defensive doc. Surely u were not trying to put pressure on him and undermine him after first confirming he can defend himself and make a doc.

When that 'generous offer' didnt gave u the result u wanted (stopping the whole agreed proces in its tracks) u decided to just not care about the doc at all, and end up making a judgement b4 the document has even been published. bcs its conveniënt for u and u want all of this to go away. u tried to under mine a proces u and seeking both agreed on. And when u felt that proces didnt work for u anymore. you just shut it down, just before it was about to be completed.

u don't have to be a lawyer to see this is fishy af

(edit, accidently added the same quote twice)

"In my world if relic dont play ball
we say aerafield, sturmpanther ect will write to Berlin Police (seekings employer) and explain that he's a cheat
thats steals money
unless he hands over 650 to ML"

Id like the context to that cause that sounds alot like blackmailing to me

All of this because of some luck and coincidences

Poor Seeking man

Let me ask you people a simple question, are your lives really that boring and easy that you decide to try and start drama on the internet?

I don't know about any of you but I work for a living and it's funny and at the same time sad to see all of this from the sidelines.

Games are made for entertainment purposes but instead of having fun while playing them some people instead decide to make a soap opera from it instead.

Now granted my opinion is that of a casual person that just plays for fun after work to relax and chill out and not play competitively for money in tournaments and so forth, but purely out of looking at it from a different angle just hold up for a sec, lean back and think about it in reality of what you're doing.

I just really miss the good old days of even the competitive scene of the old CoH being a friendly sportsmanship show between 2 or more people, even if there were bugs or broken and unbalanced shit involved people laughed it off, shook hands at the end of it and continued on with their lives.

Idk why you are surprised. There's a huge esports community that takes games more than just entertainment.

And dramas everywhere, just look at Twitch.

Although I agree with what you're saying, that's just what it is.

So the big takeaway here should be that Relic looked at the evidence and determined that "there is nothing definitive". That should have been the end of it IMO. Instead we got some random explanation about how Coh2 has 2 CMs now or some other nonsense.

Sure looks like a witch hunt to me. I feel bad for Seeking for having to go through this. Shameful shit.

"In my world if relic dont play ball
we say aerafield, sturmpanther ect will write to Berlin Police (seekings employer) and explain that he's a cheat
thats steals money
unless he hands over 650 to ML"

Id like the context to that cause that sounds alot like blackmailing to me

The conext of this is emotional exaggeration is a private message thread thinking I'd just seen someone hack their way to 2nd place in a community funded tournament so I said something stupid. Nothing like it was ever mentioned again, and it certainly wasn't ever meant seriously, and no one took it as such (or so I believed).

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No I wasn't serious. In my initial thinking upon finally being 100% convinced I'd seen someone use hacks to win publicly donated funds, I said something stupid in a private pm thread.. I dont' think people took me seriously, and I certainly didn't say anything similar after I had calmed down.

well if someone was actually proven to be a cheater in a high stakes coh2 tournament (which is not the case here as we all agree), it wouldn't be THAT absurd. It's a terrible idea just because it wouldn't lead anywhere legally and mixing up internet life and real life is generally not smart but I don't see how anyone would be completely flabbergasted by it?

I won't hop in to defend my clanmate and friend, I'll hop in to defend someone who got shit on, including by me.

I don't think it was the good call to publish screenshots from these moments, which were probably (like the clips though) out of context. I wish some names were hidden as well but too late.

But that threat on Kimbo is too much for multiple reasons :

1) He already got punished for what he did before. Double punishment is forbidden by most constitutional systems in the western countries, and that's only to quote the ones I'm aware of. I'd not recommend to proceed to do it.

2) In the hypothesis where Seeking is cheating, Kimbo would be punished for having unwavering faith, which most of us don't have, in his friend, without malicious intent.

3) Giving the option to come clean? How about letting the defendent answer to the accusations first? Adversarial system is still a thing if I'm not mistaken.

+1 Tomy

although there's a reason the legal system is the legal system and ML is a small gaming community

Let me ask you people a simple question, are your lives really that boring and easy that you decide to try and start drama on the internet?

I don't know about any of you but I work for a living and it's funny and at the same time sad to see all of this from the sidelines.

Really bad take. People donate money for the tourneys

Since you are in such a unique position of having to work for a living , surely you must understand people caring about where the money goes

well if someone was actually proven to be a cheater in a high stakes coh2 tournament (which is not the case here as we all agree), it wouldn't be THAT absurd. It's a terrible idea just because it wouldn't lead anywhere legally and mixing up internet life and real life is generally not smart but I don't see how anyone would be completely flabbergasted by it?

I suppose I just mean at the time I was not thinking clearly and said something emotional and silly that was never meant to be seen in an official capacity, only in a private message thread. That said in places like South Korea it's genuinely illegal to hack/cheat in gaming events etc.

What agreed process, a general concept was suggested, but I don't remember anywhere a process being agreed and adhered to?

I do think we should have processes and procedures for the future, as outlined in my announcement on this matter.

The only official thing I declared to seeking was from what I could see the only factual way to proceed, and it was suggested to him first, he ignored it. I waited two days then decided to proceed.

Dear community,

I was silent through the days and analysed my clips and the replays that were given to me. It took me a while to write my appeal but now i am ready to publish it. I hope everyone understands my position and how i have been treated unfairly in this case.


Link to the my document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CB9qxa5Awmjdd27koQ22G8jwQ3sjLmczzJgbd3MiivQ/edit?usp=sharing




Seeking

You made a good defense to the maphacking allegations. It was cheapened by including screenshots of what were intended to be private conversations, then by making personal attacks but trying to claim they're not personal attacks. I somewhat understand why you went there, as I think all of this should've been private.

As for some of the investigative tactics, they look like they were borrowed straight from the police's handbook for investigations. People can make up their own minds if it is okay or an overreach.

Well, we had this approach from the get go. Thats pretty much the reason why the previous thread got so dirty.

At least explains why A_E videos had a possition of "unproved yet cheater" (maybe not intentionally, but its pointless to deny it, phrasing in both videos speaks it), why some of the actions were illogical in a first place by the ppl who organized it all.

Sure sharing privite massages are not that good, but honesly, for me, nothing special was shown. It would have been more surprising, if it wasnt like that.

The only question is, why it so much personal hate. I mean, because Seeking was boosting deadbolt, and deadbolt is a cheater?

What agreed process, a general concept was suggested, but I don't remember anywhere a process being agreed and adhered to?

I do think we should have processes and procedures for the future, as outlined in my announcement on this matter.

The only official thing I declared to seeking was from what I could see the only factual way to proceed, and it was suggested to him first, he ignored it. I waited two days then decided to proceed.

I have my right to remain silent. My document was supposed to be the response to you. proceding because i didn't answer isn't justifying to ban me.

But that threat on Kimbo is too much for multiple reasons :

1) He already got punished for what he did before. Double punishment is forbidden by most constitutional systems in the western countries, and that's only to quote the ones I'm aware of. I'd not recommend to proceed to do it.

2) In the hypothesis where Seeking is cheating, Kimbo would be punished for having unwavering faith, which most of us don't have, in his friend, without malicious intent.

3) Giving the option to come clean? How about letting the defendent answer to the accusations first? Adversarial system is still a thing if I'm not mistaken.

There is a portion of the conversation missing. I ask Kimbo again to release full unredacted transcript.

The conversation begins with me simply asking a question if Seeking played as Deadbolt in a particular game.
Kimbo answered negatively citing "he don't BM like that".

The same question was negatively answered by Flap who gave a pretty reasonable answer "I talked to Deadbolt on discord during the whole game, it cannot possibly be Seeking".

Both Kimbo and Flap EXPLICITLY REFUSED to provide any answer when I asked them about another particular game.
Flap said "we were on Discord but nobody was talking" while Kimbo said "he didn't want to get Seeking banned".

At that point, I reminded Kimbo that he is protecting a player who is a associated with a known maphacker (Deadbolt) and it would be for the best if he confirmed the suspicions about the real player on Deadbolt's account in that game.

And the conversation went on about hypothetical punishment.


I stand by everything I said in those PMs. We are a small community and we need to be able to trust players in ML. If you cannot be trusted not to do stupid shit like openly covering a player with close ties to a proven maphacker, then you probably deserve a ban (especially if you are on the thin ice for previous stupidity).

for what we know it's also possible that kimbo didnt know about that or did i miss something?

I have my right to remain silent. My document was supposed to be the response to you. proceding because i didn't answer isn't justifying to ban me.

Nah you were temp banned for:

1) Admitting to playing on the pc and account of someone later to show to be a cheater. (The second part of that was revealed after the initial warning).

2) There being evidence of you playing on said account after the initial warning.

Well in "remaining silent" you closed channels of communication, not the wisest of moves. I'd say we're in a competition here to see who can make the unwisest move, like a spy thriller but with idiots on both sides.

What agreed process, a general concept was suggested, but I don't remember anywhere a process being agreed and adhered to?

I do think we should have processes and procedures for the future, as outlined in my announcement on this matter.

The only official thing I declared to seeking was from what I could see the only factual way to proceed, and it was suggested to him first, he ignored it. I waited two days then decided to proceed.

https://youtu.be/GzkzK7OK0lE?t=45 from here the next 30 secs and also the 2min till the 3 min mark. I dunno, but it deff seems like an agreement on how this is gonna go. or do u just spread suggestions and fake news in those vids? And then suddenly an undermining deal shows up in the final days of seeking writing his doc. A deal that seeking ignored, and used his right to remain silent on. But it doesnt work for u, so u pull the plug on this and make a own judgement. when u did this, u decided to not give seeking the same podium to present his side, which u literally say in this fragment u will. Also there is a screenshot in the doc, which clearly implies that u dont care about his doc anymore. So that keeps me wondering how u intend to keep word to the things u assured in the vid?

for what we know it's also possible that kimbo didnt know about that or did i miss something?

Which is fair. The problem is that in both Kimbo's and Flap's case I hit a funny bone with the particular game and they refused to say anything.

https://youtu.be/GzkzK7OK0lE?t=45 from here the next 30 secs and also the 2min till the 3 min mark. I dunno, but it deff seems like an agreement on how this is gonna go. or do u just spread suggestions and fake news in those vids? And then suddenly an undermining deal shows up in the final days of seeking writing his doc. A deal that seeking ignored, and used his right to remain silent on. But it doesnt work for u, so u pull the plug on this and make a own judgement. when u did this, u decided to not give seeking the same podium to present his side, which u literally say in this fragment u will. Also there is a screenshot in the doc, which clearly implies that u dont care about his doc anymore. So that keeps me wondering how u intend to keep word to the things u assured in the vid?

I start that sentence with "hopefully..." and then later PM seeking with a clear way forward that he ignores. One that I put a lot of consideration into, and thought would be best for everyone.

Also that very video prominently displays Seeking's VOD in the description and comment, clearly showing willing to show both sides.