I also argued for strength of the unit not being determined in the void, because there are other units behind mainlines.
Also, volks are stronger in early game then cons, so what's your problem here?
Sure, and then cons are significantly stronger than Volks in the lategame, and with SVTs they are as strong, if not stronger, than them in the early-mid game, which is kind of what we're talking about here.
How's gren performance vs Sections, by the way?
I don't have slightest idea what are you on about here.
Is there something you haven't understood when I mentioned scaling and faction contexts and this is a weird way to ask for explanation of hard words?
You specifically stated that SVTs "Perform worse" than a singular BAR, I'm asking you to clarify if you mean just in DPS terms, and further asking why a very different unit's upgrades are all that relevant when talking about the strength of SVTs, especially when they don't even fight that unit.
Incidentally; SOV do have a comparatively "elite" infantry unit that exists to provide more firepower than Conscripts, they're called Penals.
Also, volks are stronger in early game then cons, so what's your problem here?
No-one said that there is a problem with their scaling. Problem is the power cons receive the second they unlock and get SVTs. Their late-game performance is alright, because there are more units to face them be it armor or elite inf.
Problem is that for a 60 muni upgrade on a faction which spends muni mostly only on mines and AT nades, its just too good for its timing, considering that SVTs put you in a possition of being able 1v1ning both volks and grens.
On top of that allowing cons effectively engage them at all ranges outside of melee + in late game you will be stronger then them.
Sure single Bar might provide more DPS, but BAR is locked firstly behind a fuel cost (which you need to get medics\LVs) and secondly it comes for the more expensive squads of a muni starved faction. In other words USF have a lot of consequences if they deside to rush Bars the second they can.
Soviets on the other hand pretty much pay with 2 layed mines (which most likely will be triggered by enemy inf)\2 zis barrages\1 flamethrower, but all those choses are purely AI ones so in a global picture you didnt sacrific anything, because SVTs will give you stronger AI out-put then any of mentioned options strate of the bat.
Nothing is wrong with soviets having stronger inf early on, but right now SVT cons are just too strong not in late game but in early to mid game.
Sure, and then cons are significantly stronger than Volks in the lategame, and with SVTs they are as strong, if not stronger, than them in the early-mid game, which is kind of what we're talking about here.
How's gren performance vs Sections, by the way?
Yes.
Cons perform better in late game then volks.
Because soviets do not have end tech elite infantry with 20 long range DPS with most of it focused on single target.
UKF also do not have super soldiers unlocked at end of the tech to back them up.
And again, what are you trying to say here? That volks cost as much as upgraded tommies in muni, manpower and fuel?
You specifically stated that SVTs "Perform worse" than a singular BAR, I'm asking you to clarify if you mean just in DPS terms, and further asking why a very different unit's upgrades are all that relevant when talking about the strength of SVTs, especially when they don't even fight that unit.
Because there is this thing called muni, it is used to determine price of upgrade, which is directly connected to its performance with like 3 exceptions between the 5 factions.
And when SVTs were deemed too strong for their cost, their cost got increased to what it is now.
I still can't see why you are struggling so much here, its not rocket science.
Incidentally; SOV do have a comparatively "elite" infantry unit that exists to provide more firepower than Conscripts, they're called Penals.
Yeah, no.
Even attempting that argument proves you have no slightest idea about soviets and how to play with or against them.
If it was steam forum, I would check your playercard now to confirm some suspicions and would notice pristine axis PC with not a singular allied game, couple of tounsands of axis games. Am I close enough? Your arguments corelate perfectly with the archetype.
Yes.
Cons perform better in late game then volks.
Because soviets do not have end tech elite infantry with 20 long range DPS with most of it focused on single target.
Oh, they get Ober squads for free, then? I thought they took an investment of Manpower and Munitions, and in fact fuel as well, but I suppose i could be wrong.
We're not talking about Lategame, we're talking about early-mid, as Gachi has stated in his post. Cons scale late, which is fine, and this is what Mobilise provides, but we're talking instead about early-midgame, which is surprisingly not when Obers hit the field.
When does OSTheer get Obersoldaten, anyway?
UKF also do not have super soldiers unlocked at end of the tech to back them up.
And again, what are you trying to say here? That volks cost as much as upgraded tommies in muni, manpower and fuel?
Tired argument. Allied upgrades (Bolster, Grenades, Weapon racks etc) are not "unit costs", they're tech costs, as has been mentioned by multiple people in past threads. They're there to delay teching (or not, if you decide to skip some or all of them, providing flexibility to allied build orders)
Are Volks Grens, by the way? I did say "Grens", after all.
Because there is this thing called muni, it is used to determine price of upgrade, which is directly connected to its performance with like 3 exceptions between the 5 factions.
And when SVTs were deemed too strong for their cost, their cost got increased to what it is now.
I still can't see why you are struggling so much here, its not rocket science.
Muni costs can't be compared directly between factions on a 1-1 basis. 60 munitions to USF is not worth the same as 60 munitions to SOV, nor to OKW.
Yeah, no.
Even attempting that argument proves you have no slightest idea about soviets and how to play with or against them.
If it was steam forum, I would check your playercard now to confirm some suspicions and would notice pristine axis PC with not a singular allied game, couple of tounsands of axis games. Am I close enough? Your arguments corelate perfectly with the archetype.
So you're telling me that Penals don't provide increased firepower when compared to Conscripts, particularly in the early game? What DO they do, then?
What archetype is that, exactly? The one that disagrees with you? "Ur a wehraboo" is a pretty pathetic "counter-argument", katitof, don't be a child, and stop getting so flustered when people disagree with you.
Oh, they get Ober squads for free, then? I thought they took an investment of Manpower and Munitions, and in fact fuel as well, but I suppose i could be wrong.
the thing is that they are there and intended to take the torch. if obers did not exist volks would absolutley need tuned up *they already do, but more so and for different reasons)
We're not talking about Lategame, we're talking about early-mid, as Gachi has stated in his post. Cons scale late, which is fine, and this is what Mobilise provides, but we're talking instead about early-midgame, which is surprisingly not when Obers hit the field. no, obers are not on the field. but sturms are, and potentially FULLY kitted volks. volks peak sooner and fall off later. other units were always supposed to outperform them. volks were to be chaff while the 2 stock elite infantry units okw has do the heavy lifting in conjunction with their multitude of armour
When does OSTheer get Obersoldaten, anyway? they dont, though they do have pretty early pgrens *see above about timing and how that imnpactys performanmce) as well as the single best method to control enemy infanty in the game availible as their very 2nd unit without so much as a tech cost associated. they dont have stock obers, they have alternatives though
Tired argument. Allied upgrades (Bolster, Grenades, Weapon racks etc) are not "unit costs", they're tech costs, as has been mentioned by multiple people in past threads. They're there to delay teching (or not, if you decide to skip some or all of them, providing flexibility to allied build orders)
thisn onmmly holds water if they are actually optional. grenades i would call such, weapon upgrades... no. the game has evolved so that weapon upgrades are integral to unit performance. the jump in DPS, the concentrated DPS, which also reduces the impact of losing models, increased vet gain through the aforementioned DPS output and most importantly, the way almost every single weapon upgrade improves the units ability to attack on the move so as to reduce the need for positioning. it has become so integral that the few units that did not have them have received some sort of alternative (cons and penals), those without dramatically fall off - hell, obers got buffed by being delayed, because their weapon upgrade comes sooner now. thats how core weapon upgrades have become. allied factions have the flexibility of timing, but not neglecting weapon upgrades- not if they plan on being competitive
Muni costs can't be compared directly between factions on a 1-1 basis. 60 munitions to USF is not worth the same as 60 munitions to SOV, nor to OKW.
why are they not? some factions may lean harder on muni than others, but the impact is no different than fuel. one does not expect a t34 to outslug an okw p4 anymore than one would expect a 45mu+240mp con to out fight a 260mp+60 mu volk (in the case of svt cons vs volks, the higher costed unit should be outperforming, this is why svt cons needed changes) slightly more cost efficient in this or that is one thing, but saying they are completely incomparable is another and leaves no possibility for balance
So you're telling me that Penals don't provide increased firepower when compared to Conscripts, particularly in the early game? What DO they do, then?
they offer an alternative. penals scale towards offense and brute force while cons scale towards outlasting their enemy they are different philosophies if you will (which i find to be a good balance in keeping both units viable). cons are less strong early on, penals are less strong later once vet takes hold. penals fight aggressively early on and cons take a support role, late game the roles switch. both units have a place, but penals are not elite infantry to cons any more than panzer fusiliers are to volks. they are just different philosophies.
compare penals to actual elite infantry and you will be left wanting. not to say that penals are not gooed, but they are front loaded heavily (although the ptrs upgrade is quite good now) and not in scaling.
What archetype is that, exactly? The one that disagrees with you? "Ur a wehraboo" is a pretty pathetic "counter-argument", katitof, don't be a child, and stop getting so flustered when people disagree with you.
Well, to be honest, post after post you push an Axis buff [and an Allies nerf]. Sometimes you mask it with quasi-buffs/nerfs but the general idea from your posts is "I have trouble with a lot of Axis stuff that needs looking into".... which just means "They need buffs".
Still, darkarmadillo made a valid and legit post, one of the few that is neither ally-, nor wheraboo.
Well, to be honest, post after post you push an Axis buff [and an Allies nerf]. Sometimes you mask it with quasi-buffs/nerfs but the general idea from your posts is "I have trouble with a lot of Axis stuff that needs looking into".... which just means "They need buffs".
Still, darkarmadillo made a valid and legit post, one of the few that is neither ally-, nor wheraboo.
I don't believe this is the case, which posts in particular are you referring to?
I've skimmed this thread a bit, and i see a lot of talk about small quality of life stuff. That's fine of course, but i think there are fundamental problems with all the commanders that need to be addressed. I'm going to draw comparisons to coh1, because to me it seems that relic entirely forgot what made commanders in that game so great.
EVERY commander ability must be REALLY useful to have. As in, you should really feel like you're missing out when you don't have these abilities. You almost couldn't play through a coh1 game without them and win, which i've accidentally done several times in coh2. That's because so many coh2 abilities are just meh, and some even punish you (e.g. tiger ace drain, crappy squad weapon replacements etc.)!
Commanders in coh1 had 6 abilities. I can't for life of me figure out why they reduced it to 5 in coh2, but for the love of god just give us that one extra game piece to play with. This is especially needed due to what i mentioned in point 1.
Commanders in coh1 were unique and i really liked their themes and the different playstyles they provided. Their ability compositions were also great, and all gave you different toolkits to play the game with. I know that with the plethora of commanders in coh2 (at least for wehr and soviet) this changes things, e.g. with overlapping abilities, but i can work with that! It seems to me however, that many of the commander themes are incongruent with their ability compositions, and this is no doubt compounded by point 1 and 2, and this will probably be a much smaller issue if they are adhered to.
Could ostheer get at least one doctrinal forward retreat point? I was thinking of putting it in Festung Armor for example in place of smoke or the pak43, I rarely see that commander being used.
Could ostheer get at least one doctrinal forward retreat point? I was thinking of putting it in Festung Armor for example in place of smoke or the pak43, I rarely see that commander being used.
Now that Soviet have nondoc forward healing, I don't really see why this couldn't be part of a doctrine. Perhaps a new sort of Concrete Bunker?
M5 Half-Track Assault Group: Oh no, not again. I get a M5 with Guards equipped with PPsH? On Lend Lease? Why??? Soviets got over 130.000 SMGs from US alone. There would be so many options to give american or british weapons. A Thompson upgrade for Conscripts or Guards (without PTRS similar to Airborne Guards). Or Bazookas, Brens or Bars or… Same for the M5, why we will have a M5 here on Lend Lease which is in T3 already? Maybe, you even could go for british Resupply half-track here. That would provide a ton of options that would be fun to play around with. Or maybe an Ambulance car, US gave thousands to Soviets. So many possibilities to make this Commander real unique.
Yes.
Cons perform better in late game then volks.
Because soviets do not have end tech elite infantry with 20 long range DPS with most of it focused on single target.
Cons also perform better than grens late game and wehr also don't have end tech elite infanty with 20 long range dps most of it focused on single target.
UKF also do not have super soldiers unlocked at end of the tech to back them up.
And again, what are you trying to say here? That volks cost as much as upgraded tommies in muni, manpower and fuel?
Have you seen what 5 man sections with 2x brens are like bro, they'd be very upset that you think that they are weak.
Because there is this thing called muni, it is used to determine price of upgrade, which is directly connected to its performance with like 3 exceptions between the 5 factions.
And when SVTs were deemed too strong for their cost, their cost got increased to what it is now.
I still can't see why you are struggling so much here, its not rocket science.
Hmm... you do know that the new VSL gren who's upgrade costs 60 munis and 30 mp can't beat svt cons at any range across all veterancy levels. explain that.
Now that Soviet have nondoc forward healing, I don't really see why this couldn't be part of a doctrine. Perhaps a new sort of Concrete Bunker?
The unused ostheer Urban Assault doctrine has an ability that can convert ambient buildings to forward HQs (you can test it in cheat commands mod), tho it can't be built anywhere else like the soviet forward HQ in Urban Defense. Perhaps a concrete bunker could cover that part.
The unique thing about that german forward hq is that instead of medics it spawns mechanics, makes sense considering the abundance of healing options for wehrmacht.
But tbh I would be happy if all it would do is to simply provide a forward retreat point at T4 without any automatrons, perhaps not even reinforcing, forcing the player to put a 251 HT or a command bunker next to it.
The unused ostheer Urban Assault doctrine has an ability that can convert ambient buildings to forward HQs (you can test it in cheat commands mod), tho it can't be built anywhere else like the soviet forward HQ in Urban Defense. Perhaps a concrete bunker could cover that part.
The unique thing about that german forward hq is that instead of medics it spawns mechanics, makes sense considering the abundance of healing options for wehrmacht.
But tbh I would be happy if all it would do is to simply provide a forward retreat point at T4 without any automatrons, perhaps not even reinforcing, forcing the player to put a 251 HT or a command bunker next to it.
If it JUST provides an FRP, perhaps it could be the ability of an unit, rather than a building or structure? The USF major does this, perhaps a new OST officer squad could be designed with this as an ability? (Or give it to the Artillery Officer, even)
Or perhaps there's some sort of unused Funkerwagen model that could get it. Unfortunately OKW already have the 223, and that has a different ability, or you could otherwise use that.
I love the updates that you suggested. I had thought about adding breakthrough to another doctrine as well and I think your suggestion is perfect. I unfortunately play mostly OST so I can't add too much on other factions.
Adding on to those:
OST:
I think the OST Command Panzer should get a buff, or at the very least lower its CP requirement.
Mobile Defense:
Remove Ostruppen Reserves
Add Assault Grenadiers
Luftwaffe Supply:
Remove Air-dropped Medical Supplies or Recon
Add Break the Supply Line
Fix/buff Incendiary Bombing Run
Lightning War: (just showing this for visibility because its perfect)
Remove Relief Infantry
Add Breakthrough
Blitzkrieg:
Remove Tactical Movement
Add Assault and Hold
US
Rifle Company:
Buff Easy Eight
OKW
Scavenge Doctrine
Would it be too greedy to combined the Incendiary Munitions ability from Feuersturm with Through Salvage?
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