Sturmtiger... why?

Well sturm is already meme and b4 is lot of fun so maybe nerf sturmtiger accuracy and projectile speed to shit and buff its range to 60 turning it into mobile artillery

As I wrote in a previous Sturmtiger thread:

The unit needs a total overhaul. By sheer design it can not work.

With no turret and short range (current state) it is useless as it can be easily dodged. The whole hull will turn to the target making it too predictable.

With longer range than the usual vision range Allied players will cry.

The best solution imo would be to make it some kind of B4. Give it good range and a good nerf to accuracy to prevent it from being OP. If needed make it immobile after the shot so it can be swarmed and there is counter play involved. If the B4 can oneshot stuff across the map I see no reason the same shouldn't be possilbe for the Sturm (with the aforementioned nerfs to mobility and accuracy).

As I wrote in a previous Sturmtiger thread:

The unit needs a total overhaul. By sheer design it can not work.

With no turret and short range (current state) it is useless as it can be easily dodged. The whole hull will turn to the target making it too predictable.

With longer range than the usual vision range Allied players will cry.

The best solution imo would be to make it some kind of B4. Give it good range and a good nerf to accuracy to prevent it from being OP. If needed make it immobile after the shot so it can be swarmed and there is counter play involved. If the B4 can oneshot stuff across the map I see no reason the same shouldn't be possilbe for the Sturm (with the aforementioned nerfs to mobility and accuracy).

"Balancing" an unit by making it extremely inconsistent is not a good way to balance it in the slightest. The B4 is a stupid unit already, as it either wipes squads/kills vehicles, or does absolutely nothing based on RNG. The B4 shouldn't be able to oneshot things across the map either.

This is a terrible idea.

"Balancing" an unit by making it extremely inconsistent is not a good way to balance it in the slightest. The B4 is a stupid unit already, as it either wipes squads/kills vehicles, or does absolutely nothing based on RNG. The B4 shouldn't be able to oneshot things across the map either.

This is a terrible idea.

So tell me how to make the Sturmtiger useful then.

So tell me how to make the Sturmtiger useful then.

Its not about making ST usefull in a first place. Whole problem with ST is an example of inconsistency in unit desing.

Either vannila ST should be brought more or less in line with vannila ARVE (which is bad imho), with veterancy nerfs or vannila AVRE should be brought in line with ST, in other words start weak and get its perfomance back via Vet. Second aproach, again imho, is better, because of how devastating thous units can be.

So tell me how to make the Sturmtiger useful then.

I haven't put any thought into how to balance the Sturmtiger, though this doesn't mean I can't spot a conceptually flawed change when i see one.

So tell me how to make the Sturmtiger useful then.

Perhaps instead of "nuke-all" it could be changed to "nuke-partially-depending-on-ammunition-loaded".

One type of ammo would be "High-Explosive Incendiary", which would deal only 40 damage and create field of incendiary. It wouldn't outright wipe full health infantry, but would still inflict serious damage, especially if your opponent doesn't pay attention. I realize that historically Sturmtigers didn't have such ammunition type, but eh, it's not that far off.

The other type of ammo would be "High-Explosive Anti-Tank" or "High Explosive Hollow Charge". This would have much, much smaller area of effect, but would deal 320 damage (same as 17-pounder or Pak43) or maybe even 400 or 480 (since it fires every 40 seconds). To avoid making it just vanilla nuke with smaller radius, on_penetrated_action could be added that would deal only a fraction of that damage to infantry (I'd say that 40 as HEI without incendiary field sounds fine, but could always be lower). Again, historical accuracy is being reaaally stretched here, as Sturmtiger's hollow charge rounds were meant to be used against fortifications... But hey, it could still be used in that role quite effectively!

Considering it would no longer be a one-shot weapon, giving it faster firing time would probably be a wise choice.

I'm no balance guru, so the numbers likely need tweaking, but the overall idea is to give acting player a decision between anti-infantry or anti-tank (which they have to make 40 seconds ahead of firing), while receiving player doesn't get completely destroyed unless they completely lack awareness.

...

So you want change Sturmtiger into a Brummbär? xD


The problem with Sturmtiger is, that balistics are bad. It doesn't shoot like indicator shows. If you know how its balastics work it becomes really good.

A lot of "learn how to use" issues in this thread I am afraid. As Sander said, the unit is totally fine once you got an exact idea of how the sturmtiger shell works and where you can/cannot use the unit.

The two most important things you need to know is to
1) avoid elevation spots and

2) the sturmtiger shell works everywhere where ground attack with a normal tank works. Is there an obstacle where ground attack with a tank would fail? Then the Sturmtiger rocket will explode on that obstacle. Is it a tree-bush-line or light cover where ground attack would work? Then the ST rocket will pierce through and work there as well.


As an experienced Sturmtiger user you can easily tell in 9+ out of 10 cases if your Sturmtiger will be able to hit the current target location or not. It's a great unit to force off units -even if you dont fire the rocket, just as a psychological threat- and wipe HMGs or AT guns

The sturmtiger shell works everywhere where ground attack with a normal tank works. Is there an obstacle where ground attack with a tank would fail? Then the Sturmtiger rocket will explode on that obstacle. Is it a tree-bush-line or light cover where ground attack would work? Then the ST rocket will pierce through and work there as well.

+1 with that in mind it is a really good unit.

A lot of "learn how to use" issues in this thread I am afraid. As Sander said, the unit is totally fine once you got an exact idea of how the sturmtiger shell works and where you can/cannot use the unit.

Question is, why AVRE at the same time have pretty natular and easy learning curve. ST in a vacuum is a good unit, but some sort of consistency to unit balance is also requared, especially when they are pretty much the same type of unit. Or at least some trade-offs.

This is what most of the people dont like about ST. That it requare balistic physics and map knowlage, while other faction has unit, which even new player can more or less use effectively.

A lot of "learn how to use" issues in this thread I am afraid. As Sander said, the unit is totally fine once you got an exact idea of how the sturmtiger shell works and where you can/cannot use the unit.

The two most important things you need to know is to
1) avoid elevation spots and

2) the sturmtiger shell works everywhere where ground attack with a normal tank works. Is there an obstacle where ground attack with a tank would fail? Then the Sturmtiger rocket will explode on that obstacle. Is it a tree-bush-line or light cover where ground attack would work? Then the ST rocket will pierce through and work there as well.


As an experienced Sturmtiger user you can easily tell in 9+ out of 10 cases if your Sturmtiger will be able to hit the current target location or not. It's a great unit to force off units -even if you dont fire the rocket, just as a psychological threat- and wipe HMGs or AT guns

Here we go with the high horsed l2p bull again...

Do you mean to tell me that the new people that use the AVRE and are good at it is because they're some sort of rocket scientists with the ability to predict the future and also have perfect understanding of ballistics or something?

Or is it just because the thing is just cheaper and easier to use and not a headache with a bad design and no turret?

Question is, why AVRE at the same time have pretty natular and easy learning curve.

Because Relic made a mess of the Sturmtiger's design (although it should've never been added in the first place) and now we're stuck with it because there's no way to change core functions like animations.

Because Relic made a mess of the Sturmtiger's design (although it should've never been added in the first place) and now we're stuck with it because there's no way to change core functions like animations.

Sadly, the most relevant post in this thread and all involved.

Because Relic made a mess of the Sturmtiger's design (although it should've never been added in the first place) and now we're stuck with it because there's no way to change core functions like animations.

Out of curiosity - in an older post you mentioned that you tried giving it a different firing angle, but either ended up with what we currently have or a super-high angle that would take 4-6 seconds for the rocket to arrive:
Show Spoiler

I assume that those two respectively correspond to "low_angle" and "high_angle" in firing_angle_type for projectile extension. However, there's a third option "lowest_non_collide_angle" which to my knowledge works as the name suggests and almost always avoids prematurely colliding with terrain or shot blockers. Was it discarded due to variable arrival time depending on the angle calculated?

Sadly, the most relevant post in this thread and all involved.

That statement contradicts this one however:

Yes, one of the problems was that there was no way to make the rocket fly any faster. We managed to give it a really high arc (the arc can be either low or very high, there is no in between), but it took 3-6 seconds for the rocket to reach its target which imo made it both useless and weird to replace the current arc as the primary/only firing mode (that hits in 1-2 seconds).

We thought of giving it a secondary firing mode with this high arc, so the player has a choice to use the flat arc for direct fire or use the high arc (with long travel time) for indirect fire. With the high arc it could fire over buildings, forests and when firing from elevation it didn't have the undershooting issue, etc. But we never found the time for it. We may be able to look into this after the New Commanders Patch is done.

We all acknowledge that Relic fucked up, that's pretty obvious at this point if you ask me.

And as I said before in this topic, there are many ways to going for it, the only question is what are you willing to do.

From what he wrote, they might be able to do something about it, but don't want/have the time for it which is very different from being unable to change or fix it at all.

Here we go with the high horsed l2p bull again...

Do you mean to tell me that the new people that use the AVRE and are good at it is because they're some sort of rocket scientists with the ability to predict the future and also have perfect understanding of ballistics or something?

Or is it just because the thing is just cheaper and easier to use and not a headache with a bad design and no turret?

AVRE is easier to use but has no suppression and like 2 to 3 times smaller AoE, I would call that a tradeoff

The only downside of Sturm compared to Avre is the lack of cannon.
Damage is 580 vs 440
Range is 40 vs 35
Deflection damage is 290 vs 220 (penetration is 1000)
AOE radius is 14 vs 8
Distance near/mid/far is 1/3.75/8 vs 2/4/8 (still with the higher AOE sturm wins)
Damage n/m/f: 580/145/44 vs 440/220/44

Even in friendly fire it wins, deals 10 times less damage on near than AVRE (29 vs 220)

Vet is also better on Sturm. Why do people complain about that unit when they can't use it... well, not surprising really. Most people have L2P issues. Screech on forum after losing one game.

Question is, why AVRE at the same time have pretty natular and easy learning curve. ST in a vacuum is a good unit, but some sort of consistency to unit balance is also requared, especially when they are pretty much the same type of unit. Or at least some trade-offs.

So Brits can also have fun. The hole faction is based on less micro-use. And still it is a bad faction. Little trolling here

Forget about blobs, I use it mostly as a tank stunner, granting a guaranteed kill. It even gives far more xp to the sturmtiger than trying to hit a tasty blob.