No more defensive bonus. -20%(ish cause it's more than that amount) dps from 0-6, and -20%(again ish) from 27-35 and only 7-11% dps increase in the middle for 3-4 units of range from the special model. Kinda feels like they are dead now.
I guess all hail Sanders who is the greatest Balance Guru who thinks this is very small apparently.
So is 5 man grens completely useless now
25 Jan 2021, 14:00 PM
#1
Posts: 1563
25 Jan 2021, 14:23 PM
#2
Posts: 213
No more defensive bonus. -20%(ish cause it's more than that amount) dps from 0-6, and -20%(again ish) from 27-35 and only 7-11% dps increase in the middle for 3-4 units of range from the special model. Kinda feels like they are dead now.
I guess all hail Sanders who is the greatest Balance Guru who thinks this is very small apparently.
This upgrade isnt about dmg its mostly about survivability. You have a, more models compared to stock grens and pgrens and b, decent defensive stats (0,91 target size, 20%dmg reduction). If you want far/close range dps you have to go for lmg/g43 grens. Or you can go for the Jaeger Comand Squad. Current 5man grens are overpowered and needed some sort of nerf. Now this upgrade just transforms grens into a better version of volks.
25 Jan 2021, 14:27 PM
#3
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
funny how 25% more hp and firepower through bolster apparently turns 4-man sections from barely usable into terminators, while the essentially same vsl upgrade makes 5-man grens completely useless
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
25 Jan 2021, 14:44 PM
#4
Posts: 1794
i agree, the nerfs are too extreme, especially they removed g43 for stg.
it is not about fixing the meta, but to kill it and discourage use of this doctrine.
vsl are pretty much volks now.
maybe it is too performant for its costs in top 50 1v1.
but 2v2, it is needed to fight allies infantry blob head to head.
it is not about fixing the meta, but to kill it and discourage use of this doctrine.
vsl are pretty much volks now.
maybe it is too performant for its costs in top 50 1v1.
but 2v2, it is needed to fight allies infantry blob head to head.
25 Jan 2021, 14:46 PM
#5
Posts: 1563
This upgrade isnt about dmg its mostly about survivability. You have a, more models compared to stock grens and pgrens and b, decent defensive stats (0,91 target size, 20%dmg reduction). If you want far/close range dps you have to go for lmg/g43 grens. Or you can go for the Jaeger Comand Squad. Current 5man grens are overpowered and needed some sort of nerf. Now this upgrade just transforms grens into a better version of volks.
Right a doc ability should make the them better volks but worse than all other allied infantry. Nicly stupid logic on your end. And you did not answer the question m8.
25 Jan 2021, 14:50 PM
#6
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
-20%(ish cause it's more than that amount) dps from 0-6, and -20%(again ish) from 27-35 and only 7-11% dps increase in the middle for 3-4 units of range from the special model
You're using the wrong DPS values.
Max range decreases only by about 13% (for the weapon), because the cooldown bonus from the upgrade affects the STG44 differently. And for the record in absolute numbers this is a decrease from 2.4 to 2.09, or in regards to the total squad DPS at that range it goes from 11,9 to 11,6.
The STG44 is actually better up to range 33ish, not 27, because again the cooldown bonus affects it differently.
The mid range DPS is actually boosted by 15-23% (for the weapon), not 7-11%, because again the cooldown bonus affects the STG differently.
Real DPS comparison:
https://ibb.co/6tBpsp4
25 Jan 2021, 14:52 PM
#7
Posts: 1563
funny how 25% more hp and firepower through bolster apparently turns 4-man sections from barely usable into terminators, while the essentially same vsl upgrade makes 5-man grens completely useless
Cause Sections have better RA, Better DPS at all ranges but 0, Has nuke grenade, Doesn't have to deal with
Much stronger Shocks, Guards, Ranges, Paras, Cavs and Commandos + They don't have to face much stronger mainlines then themselves, can upgrade with weapons, get passive healing or sight. Sure they can't stop vehicle from bullying them. That seems very different from VSL m8.
25 Jan 2021, 14:58 PM
#8
Posts: 4474
i just hope it does not follow the same pattern of all the nerfed commander: commander is the most played one that make the faction have bearable win rates--> nerf to oblivion---> never see play again
Mobile defense says hello
Mobile defense says hello
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
25 Jan 2021, 15:01 PM
#9
Posts: 321
Doesn't have to deal with Much stronger Shocks, Guards, Ranges, Paras, Cavs and Commandos
Probs not, but this comperison doesn't go for the VSL either since Pgrens are the elite whermacht units and you just summed all elite allied units.
- Who has time? ... But then if we do not ever take time, how can we ever have time? huh?
25 Jan 2021, 15:05 PM
#10
Posts: 321
i just hope it does not follow the same pattern of all the nerfed commander: commander is the most played one that make the faction have bearable win rates--> nerf to oblivion---> never see play again
Mobile defense says hello
I think the balance team shouldn't buff/nerf units so hard (in general). Sometimes bonusses go from 0 -> 40% and sometimes from 40 -> 0%. imo a buff or nerf should only be around 10%.
Smaller adjustments do require more patches (like every month or so), which is unthinkable at this stage. Really wish they'd anounce CoH3 somewhere this year.
- Who has time? ... But then if we do not ever take time, how can we ever have time? huh?
25 Jan 2021, 15:07 PM
#11
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
Cause Sections have better RA, Better DPS at all ranges but 0, Has nuke grenade, Doesn't have to deal with
Much stronger Shocks, Guards, Ranges, Paras, Cavs and Commandos + They don't have to face much stronger mainlines then themselves, can upgrade with weapons, get passive healing or sight. Sure they can't stop vehicle from bullying them. That seems very different from VSL m8.
not sure whether you chose to conveniently ignore the point i made or simply failed to grasp it, but i guess what i wanted to bring across is that both upgrades give 25% more survivability and DPS (even more of the latter for vsl, actually) through the extra model they get... regardless of innate RA, DPS or utility. they're still 25% better and tougher than without the upgrade. how this can be regarded as op for brits but useless for wehr is beyond me.
||| ScatterThis! - Tank AI calculation made easy ||| CoH2 Pen Calc - Tank vs tank... who wins against who and by what margin? |||
25 Jan 2021, 15:08 PM
#12
Posts: 1794
This upgrade isnt about dmg its mostly about survivability. You have a, more models compared to stock grens and pgrens and b, decent defensive stats (0,91 target size, 20%dmg reduction). If you want far/close range dps you have to go for lmg/g43 grens. Or you can go for the Jaeger Comand Squad. Current 5man grens are overpowered and needed some sort of nerf. Now this upgrade just transforms grens into a better version of volks.
correct me, but the target size and rd are already in stock grens vet.
what does vsl really grant now?
1 more man/80hp, auto heal at vet3?, 1 more dps, stg over kar98.
is stg better than kar or just different purposes?
is lmg42 worst that stg, or just differnt purposes?
25 Jan 2021, 15:09 PM
#13
Posts: 1563
You're using the wrong DPS values.
Max range decreases only by about 13% (for the weapon), because the cooldown bonus from the upgrade affects the STG44 differently. And for the record in absolute numbers this is a decrease from 2.4 to 2.09, or in regards to the total squad DPS at that range it goes from 11,9 to 11,6.
The STG44 is actually better up to range 32ish, not 27, because again the cooldown bonus affects it differently.
The mid range DPS is actually boosted by 15-23% (for the weapon), not 7-11%, because again the cooldown bonus affects the STG differently.
Real DPS comparison:
https://ibb.co/6tBpsp4
But are they still useable m8. Wehr Doesn't have strong elite infantry that can hold the line vs Allied elite. This doctrinal ability was supposed to help with that. I understand their i tapping models is a problem. but should not be struggling vs bar(single) rifles or bren(single) Sections caus they cost similar. But they do now. I hope you know that. They should be equal or even a bit stronger as they are doc specific. I'm getting the impression people don't really care about this enough. And stats mean jack all buddy.
So you answer should be "why there are not useless now". Now give that answer.
25 Jan 2021, 15:16 PM
#14
Posts: 1563
Probs not, but this comperison doesn't go for the VSL either since Pgrens are the elite whermacht units and you just summed all elite allied units.
I did not understand your point. My point was that not only are Section stronger in terms of combat they also have weaker stuff to fight against. That's why the 5th man upgrade makes them act like terminators.
VSL should not be forcing elite Allied infantry to high tail it outta their. But they should be smashing all the single upgraded mainlines, single bar rifle, single bren sections/ 5 man sections as they cost more or same and are doctrinal.
But yeah i didn't really get your point.
25 Jan 2021, 15:20 PM
#15
Posts: 1794
I did not understand your point. My point was that not only are Section stronger in terms of combat they also have weaker stuff to fight against. That's why the 5th man upgrade makes them act like terminators.
VSL should not be forcing elite Allied infantry to high tail it outta their. But they should be smashing all the single upgraded mainlines, single bar rifle, single bren sections/ 5 man sections as they cost more or same and are doctrinal.
But yeah i didn't really get your point.
actually pre-nerf vsl can't even smash mainline allies.
at least when rifles and is are similarly vet and have at least 1 upgraded weapon.
they are pretty close
pre-nerf vsl cant even hold well against commando or shocks, unless they are vet3.
25 Jan 2021, 15:22 PM
#16
Posts: 1563
not sure whether you chose to conveniently ignore the point i made or simply failed to grasp it, but i guess what i wanted to bring across is that both upgrades give 25% more survivability and DPS (even more of the latter for vsl, actually) through the extra model they get... regardless of innate RA, DPS or utility. they're still 25% better and tougher than without the upgrade. how this can be regarded as op for brits but useless for wehr is beyond me.
let say you cutting paper and you have with 4 needle's and some one is trying to cut a cinderblock(this does not anything to do with game it's just an analogy) with 4 nails. Who's 5ht addition do you think would make more impact.
25 Jan 2021, 15:23 PM
#17
Posts: 1563
correct me, but the target size and rd are already in stock grens vet.
what does vsl really grant now?
1 more man/80hp, auto heal at vet3?, 1 more dps, stg over kar98.
is stg better than kar or just different purposes?
is lmg42 worst that stg, or just differnt purposes?
Grens no longer get Target Size from vet. That was changedd to rec Damage to stop them getting 1 shot by explosives.
25 Jan 2021, 15:26 PM
#18
Posts: 1563
actually pre-nerf vsl can't even smash mainline allies.
at least when rifles and is are similarly vet and have at least 1 upgraded weapon.
they are pretty close
pre-nerf vsl cant even hold well against commando or shocks, unless they are vet3.
M8, I'm sorry I have to tell you this but, I'm pretty sure "Your not using them well"
25 Jan 2021, 15:44 PM
#19
Posts: 3118 | Subs: 2
I did not understand your point. My point was that not only are Section stronger in terms of combat they also have weaker stuff to fight against. That's why the 5th man upgrade makes them act like terminators.
VSL should not be forcing elite Allied infantry to high tail it outta their. But they should be smashing all the single upgraded mainlines, single bar rifle, single bren sections/ 5 man sections as they cost more or same and are doctrinal.
But yeah i didn't really get your point.
Single bar Rifles/Bren IS are still more expensive than VSL grenadiers. And late game they even cost the same for reinforcement.
...
Off topic: Could you send me the formula for the DPS calculation?
25 Jan 2021, 15:48 PM
#20
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Off topic: Could you send me the formula for the DPS calculation?
Miragefla pulled these from the editor. You'd have to ask him. Or ask GabrielSerealia.
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