Smartie's commander reworks: USF

So I was sitting on a couple ideas for USF commanders. It essentially decluttered Mechanized Company since it had so much in it's roster and then spread it out among some of the weaker commanders. This was before the balance change came around so it would need work now that Mechanized Company got a hefty nerf to it's power level.

Mechanized Company
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Armor Company
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Rifle Company
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Beyond those 3 I hope we see some love given back the Pershing as it really suffered after it got nerfed since it wasn't that powerful before hand and now preforms so poorly.

Highly unlikely that the mod team will buff USF in any way. Be it commander or core. They'd get way too much backlash (eg.people still complain about 2x bar rifles and even a handful of people labeled pathfinders OP in close range...). A couple of loud voices in conjunction with weak decision making from mod team leads to the current patch (QoL changes are great though). Played about 25 games from v1 to v5 and honestly, most are just quasi buffs/nerfs. Only a couple of real nerfs or buffs (ostruppen, pak, scott, okw tech). Rest just duds. I wouldn't expect much from the commander patch (if it even happens).

* I'd like to see 2 new docs for USF, OKW, and Brits, and 3-4 total reworks of existing docs in Ost and Soviets. For the first three, there are too many units that are present in only a single doc, and what works in a 1v1 or team game doesn't always work well in the other, leading to a lot of units getting sidelined. (E8, Priest, Pershing, M10, Greyhound, Assault Engineers, Calvary Riflemen, 76, 105) For the last two, there is way too many similar doctrines, or ones that are just plain terrible.

* I really want to see the Pershing in Armor over the 105. Assault Engineers would mean you wouldn't need to invest in extra REs late, and the M10 would help you cheaply stall for a heavy.

* Rifle Company really needs another impact unit. Units are the strongest thing you can put in docs, and it only has 1. It also burns 3 points on Riflemen, but shows almost no real improvement in combat capability for it besides the sandbags which are available elsewhere.

* I don't think Urbans RE Grenades are well designed, and should be swapped for a flamethrower. Rifle Grenades were a major part of US infantry firepower in WW2, but the implementation needs to be closer to the Grenadier version. I'd also like the 105 here instead of the dozer, but I think there would be way too much uproar about it to make that change.

* Recon Support's Raid Tactics is really unappealing. The Greyhound also needs a rethink as a unit. Its main gun is pitiful, and it leans way too hard on its massive HP pool and 50cal for damage.

* Outside of that, a lot of USF's calldowns are just...bad. P-47 Rocket Strafe is more expensive and less accurate than its peers. 240mm Barrage needs help. P-47 Strafe costs an insane amount of munitions. Smoke Barrage is more expensive than the Axis version and provides no scouting. Etc.

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* Outside of that, a lot of USF's calldowns are just...bad. P-47 Rocket Strafe is more expensive and less accurate than its peers. 240mm Barrage needs help. P-47 Strafe costs an insane amount of munitions. Smoke Barrage is more expensive than the Axis version and provides no scouting. Etc.

Good post, dude!

I think the mod team should take a closer look at the cost of 12CP calldowns in general.

There are some abilities that need a cost reduction and maybe a rework to make them more impactful:

• UK: concentrated Fire Barrage / current price: 240 munition
  
• USF: P-47 rocket run / current price: 240 munition
  
• USF: 240mm HOwitzer barrage / current price: 250 munition
  
• OKW: Zeroing Arty / current price: 300 munition
  
  None of the mentioned abilities justifies a heavier price tag imo.
  
  
  
  

Tactical support

Loiter planes with calliope is a terrible idea because they can stop any dives attempt to kill calliope

Heavy cavalry
Ranger and Pershing should simply not be in the same commander.

WHY ? OST got tiger and pgrens. OKW got kt and elite stock infantry. When you get critizing USF first look OKW and OST. Why there is such hypocrisie when we are talking about USF ?

WHY ? OST got tiger and pgrens. OKW got kt and elite stock infantry. When you get critizing USF first look OKW and OST. Why there is such hypocrisie when we are talking about USF ?

Can we toned done the accusation else will not be able to have any meaningful debate.

USF and OKW still should NOT have access to snipers + there is no model, therefore its impossible anyway.

Its way too much work for something that's more likely to be gamebreaking then not.

Agree, voth OKW and USF should't have snipers.

E8 need just one thing:
50range like old comet to be something like soft panther
Usf need more AT options

I strongly agree with this opinion.
And if the ez8 is a buff in anti-tank capabilities in a rifleman company, on the other hand, it may lack anti-infantry capabilities. So the Ranger sniper idea is good, but I think it makes more sense to add a Ranger squad.
And the current ez8 doesn't have any distinct advantages, so top players hesitate to use it in tournaments.
So, if you adjust fire range, ez8 needs a buff from 40 to 50 as in this opinion.

I strongly agree with this opinion.
And if the ez8 is a buff in anti-tank capabilities in a rifleman company, on the other hand, it may lack anti-infantry capabilities. So the Ranger sniper idea is good, but I think it makes more sense to add a Ranger squad.
And the current ez8 doesn't have any distinct advantages, so top players hesitate to use it in tournaments.
So, if you adjust fire range, ez8 needs a buff from 40 to 50 as in this opinion.

Do you know how much backlash you would get from whereaboos if you did that? Besides, E8 would still be useless. Even with 50 range. Well, not as useless. It's main role is to brawl mediums, however, having lower armour than OKW P4 and mediocre penetration, combined with slightly above average HP and below average AI cannon, 50 range would do nothing. Only real tank it would counter then would be OST P4. Unless armour or HP or AI or a combination of those is buffed, E8 will never see the light of day in any sort of competitive play (penetration values are fine as it is supposed to be a closer range tank).

Think about it, what would 50 range achieve on 200/165/155 penetration values? OST P4 has 180 armour, so that's about 85% to penetrate, which leaves quite a large margin for RNG. 15% ain't much but it ain't neglectable. OKW P4 has 234 armour, which is about 65% chance to penetrate, something I would not toy around with and leave it to RNG gods. Combined with 6-6.6s reload, there is much left to be desired.

Summa summarum, 50 range buff on E8 would be pointless and would further reduce the role it has. Why give it slightly above average armour compared to OST tanks and slightly above average HP compared to all stock mediums if you plan on using it long range only? To what? Have a chance at penetrating mediums?

Not gonna comment if E8 would go against a panther. Only a pair of E8s can contest with Panther

Do you know how much backlash you would get from whereaboos if you did that? Besides, E8 would still be useless. Even with 50 range. Well, not as useless. It's main role is to brawl mediums, however, having lower armour than OKW P4 and mediocre penetration, combined with slightly above average HP and below average AI cannon, 50 range would do nothing. Only real tank it would counter then would be OST P4. Unless armour or HP or AI or a combination of those is buffed, E8 will never see the light of day in any sort of competitive play (penetration values are fine as it is supposed to be a closer range tank).

Think about it, what would 50 range achieve on 200/165/155 penetration values? OST P4 has 180 armour, so that's about 85% to penetrate, which leaves quite a large margin for RNG. 15% ain't much but it ain't neglectable. OKW P4 has 234 armour, which is about 65% chance to penetrate, something I would not toy around with and leave it to RNG gods. Combined with 6-6.6s reload, there is much left to be desired.

Summa summarum, 50 range buff on E8 would be pointless and would further reduce the role it has. Why give it slightly above average armour compared to OST tanks and slightly above average HP compared to all stock mediums if you plan on using it long range only? To what? Have a chance at penetrating mediums?

Not gonna comment if E8 would go against a panther. Only a pair of E8s can contest with Panther

Easy8 does not have mediocre penetration is has superior penetration to medium tanks.

Easy8 beats both PzIV and perform according to its price.

Do you know how much backlash you would get from whereaboos if you did that? Besides, E8 would still be useless. Even with 50 range. Well, not as useless. It's main role is to brawl mediums, however, having lower armour than OKW P4 and mediocre penetration, combined with slightly above average HP and below average AI cannon, 50 range would do nothing. Only real tank it would counter then would be OST P4. Unless armour or HP or AI or a combination of those is buffed, E8 will never see the light of day in any sort of competitive play (penetration values are fine as it is supposed to be a closer range tank).

Think about it, what would 50 range achieve on 200/165/155 penetration values? OST P4 has 180 armour, so that's about 85% to penetrate, which leaves quite a large margin for RNG. 15% ain't much but it ain't neglectable. OKW P4 has 234 armour, which is about 65% chance to penetrate, something I would not toy around with and leave it to RNG gods. Combined with 6-6.6s reload, there is much left to be desired.

Summa summarum, 50 range buff on E8 would be pointless and would further reduce the role it has. Why give it slightly above average armour compared to OST tanks and slightly above average HP compared to all stock mediums if you plan on using it long range only? To what? Have a chance at penetrating mediums?

Not gonna comment if E8 would go against a panther. Only a pair of E8s can contest with Panther

I listened to your opinion. I understood your exact opinion as saying that the ez8's range buff would be useless. If so, I would like to talk about your competitive edge with Panther, but I think that is a very wrong judgment. And the ez8's range buff is aimed at dividing jackson's anti-tank role. And if you don't have an accurate opinion on what you want, I can't communicate with you. What's the content buff you want for the Rifle company.

I listened to your opinion. I understood your exact opinion as saying that the ez8's range buff would be useless. If so, I would like to talk about your competitive edge with Panther, but I think that is a very wrong judgment. And the ez8's range buff is aimed at dividing jackson's anti-tank role. And if you don't have an accurate opinion on what you want, I can't communicate with you. What's the content buff you want for the Rifle company.

I don't want anything. I stopped caring when I saw that the mod team mostly listens to the loudest people on this forum. Furthremore, I did not compare it to a Panther per-say. Just stated that with 50 range, it would have some sort of strange role like a Panther, which does have less AI without the MG upgrade, but is all around better (and more expensive). In my opinion E8 needs one of the following: Armor/HP/AI buff. Standalone or in combination. While it will win vs an OKW P4, it will be a Pyrrhic victory at best. Especially against a good opponent. Right now, E8 is only good en-masse with vet1. So in teamgames where you have the space and time to build up a force through careful engagements and usually around 100 VP mark to overrun the opponent (like with Panthers and Tigers or Comets).

About your dividing the Jacksons anti tank role. Jackson will never be not built in any game. Why? Because Axis have 260 armour Panthers which also have the speed and enough AI bleed to send infantry running (once pintle MG is upgraded and assuming that the player is smart enough to keep all 3 MGs on target).
If the enemy gets a Tiger, that void is even further amplified. Let's say you have 3 rifles, an officer and a light vehicle. Either an AA HT or Stuart. That's about 40 population. Now one would assume that you have either a pak or 50 cal and an AT gun. That's 55-62 population. That's your standard force that can answer most threats. That leaves you for 2x E8s. Now for 1v1, that is more than enough and E8s can do their job at keeping mediums at bay and probing enemy lines but as the game progresses, and you risk going vs Tigers and Panthers, your E8s will become obsolete. The AT gun will become a muni sink and you will need to get jacksons.
So, knowing that... I'd go for regular shermans which give me extra AI and use the leftover pop to get another AT. Heck, or even if I have a ranger commander a 3x zook rangers for some ambush tactics against diving tanks. And in the end the Jackson will come superior. Why go E8 when you have a 60 range TD, which, being useless against infantry more than makes up for with AT power.

If anything, I can only imagine E8 to be some sort of a cousin to a Comet, with a proportional price increase. As I said, right now E8 can brawl mediums, but not as Comet or Panther can. I'm not a fan of such high penetration chances on normal range combats. Medium range, OKW P4 has 54% of penetrating E8 while E8 has 67% chance. That's not a calculation I'd take, even with 1 more shot HP worth of stats. Chances are the E8 will win but will need repairs (jackson can win without risking anything). Vs OST P4 I'd gladly take.

If the sniper is no option for USF then I would like to see Rangers in "Rifle Company" and "Cav Rifles" in Heavy Cavalry" instead of the Rangers.

would like to see a more distinctive E8, its too bland to go for, commander is meh.

The E8s problems are being a bit overstated here.

SHERMAN E8:
HP: 720
Armor: 215 / 90
Speed: 6.1
Penetration: 200 / 165 / 155
Reload: 6 - 6.6
AOE: 2 (0.88 OHKO radius)
Scatter: 5

PANZER IV AUSF J:
HP: 640
Armor: 234 / 90
Speed: 6
Penetration: 125 / 115 / 110
Reload: 5.3 - 5.7
AOE: 2.5 (1.13 OHKO radius)
Scatter: 6.5

T-34-85:
HP: 800
Armor: 160 / 80
Speed: 6.1
Penetration: 160 / 140 / 120
Reload: 6 - 6.3
AOE: 2.5 (1.11 OHKO radius)
Scatter: 7.5

Compared to the other premium mediums, it stats up very favorably. Its far tougher than the P4J and has enough armor to realistically bounce shots unlike the T-34-85. (being able to bounce snares 25% of the time is also very relevant) Of the mediums tanks in the game, I would argue it is by far the most survivable, especially when you consider its built in smoke.

It also has the best penetration in its class combined with the lowest scatter to let it comfortably handle anything in the medium weight class. While its AT capabilities are being downplayed a bit in this thread, I'd happily take one against any Axis medium. (And as long as you are willing to get Jacksons, it will perform well as a flanker vs the bigger cats)

Of course, its toughness and AT strength have to come at a price, and the E8 pays for it in anti infantry capability. Its 1HKO radius ties it with the Cromwell for lowest in the game for medium tanks, which combined with its low rate of fire places it squarely on the bottom of the tier in terms of AI performance. How much of a problem this is is up to personal preference, as the scatter is low enough that it will consistently whittle down squads that try to ignore it and it does still have 3 MGs.

I personally feel the problems with the unit are more related to the doctrine than the unit. The E8 itself manages to fill enough of a niche that an improved Rifle Company or a new doctrine would bring it back into play. Modders that have tried to buff it (Miragefla and Sanders iirc) both quickly discovered that it can quickly turn into a 140 fuel Comet with only a few tweaks.

would like to see a more distinctive E8, its too bland to go for, commander is meh.

They should've made a second commander with it. Probably instead of making a second Calli commander

Easy8 does not have mediocre penetration is has superior penetration to medium tanks.

Easy8 beats both PzIV and perform according to its price.

According to who? You? I can't remember when was the last time I've seen an Easy 8 in a game. That alone tells enough about how it "performs according to it's price."

If the sniper is no option for USF then I would like to see Rangers in "Rifle Company" and "Cav Rifles" in Heavy Cavalry" instead of the Rangers.

I honestly don't see any reason to dismiss the idea of OKW or USF snipers out of hand, other than a "Faction flavour" argument... though I don't see "Doesn't have a sniper" as a particularly defining piece of "Faction flavour".

I think it's a fine idea, though I'd still argue they oughtta be nondoctrinal.

If the sniper is no option for USF then I would like to see Rangers in "Rifle Company" and "Cav Rifles" in Heavy Cavalry" instead of the Rangers.

I agree with your opinion. However, these adjustments require some work.The cav rifle is basically armed with an m3 grease gun. I think their armament needs to be adjusted to m1 carbine. Are you thinking of the idea that the Ranger can help with the lack of anti-infantry capabilities to the rifle company? If so, I agree. Your opinion.
And for Heavy cavarly, I thought the Cav Rifle was pretty much needed.

According to who? You? I can't remember when was the last time I've seen an Easy 8 in a game. That alone tells enough about how it "performs according to it's price."

According to the stats, check post 35