Smartie's commander reworks: USF

Easy8 is fine if a bit stuck being a jack of all trades master of none, the majority of the doctrine around it sucks though so there is no justification of ever using Rifle Company in it's current state since other doctrines do what it wants to do better, and the unique things it gives you are underwhelming.

Rifleman field defenses is great (and gets indirectly better with the other mainline sandbags getting nerfed) but if I want RFD I'm going Heavy Cav where I also get a cheaper smoke barrage, elite infantry, and arguably an even better tank.

Flamethrower RE's have the problem that they are mutually exclusive with Sweepers which means you need to build another of the most useless unit in the game to justify getting a flamethrower+Sweeper/Zook which isn't a good look when Urban Assault gives you Riflemen Molotovs which are pretty much objectively better at doing everything the flamethrower can since RE's die when you so much as look at them. (They also give RE's an infinitely better slot item in the Rifle Grenade Launcher so they can actually contribute to fights.) Sweeper and Flamethrower should be allowed together bare minimum. Also Flares are good.

Fire up is okay. It's basically Oourah where you use it to get to cover and not bleed, or snare something, or get on a long range unit/get around an MG to force them off. It's nothing to write home and surely not something you actively want eating up your doctrine space, should just combine this with something else like the assault package since it's so low impact.

White Phos barrage is too expensive for a faction that obliterates their munitions in weapon upgrades and already has things such as Major Barrage that act as a team weapon/building/static deterrent to begin with. The main use for this is smoke with extra utility that's just not worth the cost honestly but assuming other aspects of the doctrine are buffed this could probably be fine as the "just okay" item in the doctrine.

There is.

Am I being blind?

Edit: Just alt-tabbed back to the game. The icon appeared after I clicked to summon another batch of paratroopers. After that both of the paras had elites.

Seems I just witnessed a UI bug in my last game with paras.

I stand corrected. They do have elite zooks. Was bugging me a while but never had the will to test it again.

Am I being blind?

use the commander ability and do not instant spawn them.

use the ability and do not instant spwan them.

Now you are being blind. Can't you see the cooldown on the ability?

Now you are being blind. Can't you see the cooldown on the ability?

Try to be more polite to people that are trying to help you.

All 3 unis have the icon when they are call in the game properly.

The issue with the E8 is that it's an AT tank in a faction with the very best TD going. There's no need for it as the Jackson can do the task without the risk of damage. There will never be a spot for any of the alt AT option for USF as long as they pale to the Jackson.

Statistically the e8 is fantastic. It's got great armour and fantastic pen. It's got mobility, it has utility it has the usf crew! In any other faction it would be the only medium you see, but no other faction has a fast moving, fast turreted, high pen, 60 range, self healing TD that can pump up its damage and pen with the click of a button either....

The issue with the E8 is that it's an AT tank in a faction with the very best TD going. There's no need for it as the Jackson can do the task without the risk of damage. There will never be a spot for any of the alt AT option for USF as long as they pale to the Jackson.

Statistically the e8 is fantastic. It's got great armour and fantastic pen. It's got mobility, it has utility it has the usf crew! In any other faction it would be the only medium you see, but no other faction has a fast moving, fast turreted, high pen, 60 range, self healing TD that can pump up its damage and pen with the click of a button either....

And it got outclassed once the panther/tiger or whatever heavier is out. There is a reason why the T74-85 is considered as the best premium medium tank and that's not because of its AT weight.

And it got outclassed once the panther/tiger or whatever heavier is out. There is a reason why the T74-85 is considered as the best premium medium tank and that's not because of its AT weight.

The E8 has more pen and armour than the 85,more utility and only 80hp less (still requires an extra hit over standard variants from conventional AT including tigers and panthers). It's AI on the cannon is about the only place the t34/85 pulls ahead, and even that is in part made up by the pintle on. Additionally AI is not something usf lacks...
The 85 is more available and comes in better commanders, but the E8 is a superior tank statistically. That's without even attributing the crew or smoke or vet..

The E8 has more pen and armour than the 85,more utility and only 80hp less (still requires an extra hit over standard variants from conventional AT including tigers and panthers). It's AI on the cannon is about the only place the t34/85 pulls ahead, and even that is in part made up by the pintle on. Additionally AI is not something usf lacks...
The 85 is more available and comes in better commanders, but the E8 is a superior tank statistically. That's without even attributing the crew or smoke or vet..

And nothing that statistically make the Ez8 a great tank let him compete with the panther making it as poorly efficient as the T34-85 on the AT department on anything above the Pz4. I really don't know what so complicated to understand here.
The T34-85 is a great tank because while naturally outclassing Pz4s it has great anti infantry impact and good survivability.

There are 3 ways to make the Ez8 useful. Or a T34-85 clone but the segment is already filled with the sherman dozer or a panther clone with obviously the cost increased accordingly. Third way would be to make the doctrine so good people would pick it regularly and build the Ez8 because its in it.

These arguments feel to me a lot like what was said about the 76 a year ago when no one was using it either.

Statistically the unit is fine. It trades away a chunk of its anti infantry capability for best in class AT and toughness. A pair of E8s is every bit as capable as a Dozer Sherman + Jackson against all but some very niche threats.

Nobody denies that it's best in class and that it outguns the stock P4s, both. While statistically it is superior, the superiority is not that big. Going vs OKW P4, E8 will win most of the time (unless RNG gods are against it), but it won't win like a Panther wins vs all other tanks, it will force it off a bit while getting out with 33% or less health on average (at least from my experience using it). It walks over OST P4.
It also does not need to trade with Panther. Panther is in a class of it's own and no tank should be similar to it. Probably the closest is Comet with it's price but it trades AT power and range for better AI cannon and utility (30 more armour, 160 less HP, more utility, no pintle MG, and other pros/cons).

I can't think of a single reason why E8 should not have a price increase with buffed armour or HP to 800.

I don't think anyone can deny that the E8 is great on paper. The commander is piss poor and it's in only one. But that is the problem with OKW, USF and UKF. Low commander count.

Without the buffs, it can only work in 1v1s where the risk of a snare is not that great, compared to teamgames where that extra 80 hp means nothing as most likely there will be one wild snare coming your way. Not to mention that the armour won't bounce paks or raketen, negating any sort of brawl in teamgames. Eg. Brummbar, panther can brawl. KVs and Churchills can sponge it, etc.

Esxile is right in a way. Either the doctrine needs to have some sort of 6CP+ abilities or the E8 should be a love child of a comet. A bit retarded doctrinal love child with worse stats and lower price

These arguments feel to me a lot like what was said about the 76 a year ago when no one was using it either.

Statistically the unit is fine. It trades away a chunk of its anti infantry capability for best in class AT and toughness. A pair of E8s is every bit as capable as a Dozer Sherman + Jackson against all but some very niche threats.

It's important to think about opportunity cost when discussing doctrinal units. The Easy8 is good at AT, but it's not better than a Jackson, and the Easy8 is okay at anti-infantry capability, but it can't hold a candle to an HE Sherman. The Easy8 really only functions as an exceptional unit during the Medium phase of the game after you get your first tank, but before you get your second tank where it can function as both a discount Sherman and a discount Jackson until you round out your roster where you're pretty much breaking even with non-doc units.

On top of that, in order to go this doctrine at all, you're trading the current WC-51 and Cav Rifles, or Rangers, Pershing and Cheap Smoke, or Paratroopers and non-teched AT/50Cal or cheap Paratroopers+PackHowie for essentially Rifleman Oourah, Flares, and Sandbags. That trade is not even close to worth it in any of those instances.

Nobody denies that it's best in class and that it outguns the stock P4s, both. While statistically it is superior, the superiority is not that big. Going vs OKW P4, E8 will win most of the time (unless RNG gods are against it), but it won't win like a Panther wins vs all other tanks, it will force it off a bit while getting out with 33% or less health on average (at least from my experience using it). It walks over OST P4.
It also does not need to trade with Panther. Panther is in a class of it's own and no tank should be similar to it. Probably the closest is Comet with it's price but it trades AT power and range for better AI cannon and utility (30 more armour, 160 less HP, more utility, no pintle MG, and other pros/cons).

I can't think of a single reason why E8 should not have a price increase with buffed armour or HP to 800.

I don't think anyone can deny that the E8 is great on paper. The commander is piss poor and it's in only one. But that is the problem with OKW, USF and UKF. Low commander count.

Without the buffs, it can only work in 1v1s where the risk of a snare is not that great, compared to teamgames where that extra 80 hp means nothing as most likely there will be one wild snare coming your way. Not to mention that the armour won't bounce paks or raketen, negating any sort of brawl in teamgames. Eg. Brummbar, panther can brawl. KVs and Churchills can sponge it, etc.

Esxile is right in a way. Either the doctrine needs to have some sort of 6CP+ abilities or the E8 should be a love child of a comet. A bit retarded doctrinal love child with worse stats and lower price

Well I had a huge reply that got deleted by this world class site, so lets try the abridged version...

I guess I dunno why the E8 has to be a straight up Panther or Comet for it to have value. I've never seen a complaint about the T-34-85 being an upgraded T-34 or the Ost P4J being an improved P4. I'm assuming your perspective is coming from a larger teamgame mode, where mediums struggle. If thats the case, I don't know if the E8 will ever be viable there. Even if we made it a straight up Panther clone, the Jackson would now be cheaper, longer ranged, and have more reliable penetration against the big cats. Furthermore, you would still feel obligated to take Infantry or a Calliope doc to fill the gaping holes in the stock USF roster over something you can already handle to a reasonable degree.

It may be that the E8 is just going to be a 1v1 or 2v2 unit. The way the game plays shifts dramatically depending on the mode, and that in turn changes the power level of lots of units.

I do agree that the doc is in desperate need of a rework though. I'm also a big proponent of more docs for USF / OKW / Brits, as there are too many units that only appear in a single doc and are often only good in a single mode.

It's important to think about opportunity cost when discussing doctrinal units. The Easy8 is good at AT, but it's not better than a Jackson, and the Easy8 is okay at anti-infantry capability, but it can't hold a candle to an HE Sherman. The Easy8 really only functions as an exceptional unit during the Medium phase of the game after you get your first tank, but before you get your second tank where it can function as both a discount Sherman and a discount Jackson until you round out your roster where you're pretty much breaking even with non-doc units.

On top of that, in order to go this doctrine at all, you're trading the current WC-51 and Cav Rifles, or Rangers, Pershing and Cheap Smoke, or Paratroopers and non-teched AT/50Cal or cheap Paratroopers+PackHowie for essentially Rifleman Oourah, Flares, and Sandbags. That trade is not even close to worth it in any of those instances.

My opinion on this is that if your infantry are doing well on the ground (getting into their vet 3 and 2nd BARs) it makes more sense to hard check the Axis mediums and soft check infantry (E8) rather than the other way around. (HE Sherman) Since you don't really want a Jackson that early, an E8 is a good way to accomplish this.

Additionally, you aren't really pushed into any direction for your 2nd tank. Another E8 is often fine, but a HE Sherman, Scott, or Jackson second all work fine with an E8 if the situation calls for it.

I do agree the doctrine is subpar though. I play with it every once in a while, and it doesn't have a ton of selling points compared to the alternatives. It burns 3 doctrinal points on infantry, but only one (sandbags) has any real impact and is available elsewhere. It needs some other impact units to give it a role.

Well I had a huge reply that got deleted by this world class site, so lets try the abridged version...

I guess I dunno why the E8 has to be a straight up Panther or Comet for it to have value. I've never seen a complaint about the T-34-85 being an upgraded T-34 or the Ost P4J being an improved P4. I'm assuming your perspective is coming from a larger teamgame mode, where mediums struggle. If thats the case, I don't know if the E8 will ever be viable there. Even if we made it a straight up Panther clone, the Jackson would now be cheaper, longer ranged, and have more reliable penetration against the big cats. Furthermore, you would still feel obligated to take Infantry or a Calliope doc to fill the gaping holes in the stock USF roster over something you can already handle to a reasonable degree.

It may be that the E8 is just going to be a 1v1 or 2v2 unit. The way the game plays shifts dramatically depending on the mode, and that in turn changes the power level of lots of units.

I do agree that the doc is in desperate need of a rework though. I'm also a big proponent of more docs for USF / OKW / Brits, as there are too many units that only appear in a single doc and are often only good in a single mode.

Perhaps. I am speaking from a 3v3 mode perspective. I wouldn't like if E8 became a clone of Comet or Panther.

My idea would be the following alongside the commander rework:
Buff armor to 230 (+15), ever so slightly buff AI power of the cannon. Increase price by 10-15 fuel.
I feel that it would give a slightly bigger edge vs medium tanks (a couple of percentages of penetration less), an edge that is worth investing in with the doctrine.

And nothing that statistically make the Ez8 a great tank let him compete with the panther making it as poorly efficient as the T34-85 on the AT department on anything above the Pz4. I really don't know what so complicated to understand here.
The T34-85 is a great tank because while naturally outclassing Pz4s it has great anti infantry impact and good survivability.

There are 3 ways to make the Ez8 useful. Or a T34-85 clone but the segment is already filled with the sherman dozer or a panther clone with obviously the cost increased accordingly. Third way would be to make the doctrine so good people would pick it regularly and build the Ez8 because its in it.

Your issue then seems to be that you want much more out of the E8 than it's supposed to give. There are an extremely limited number of tanks that can go toe to toe with the Panther. That is by design.
The E8 is not and will not ever be one of those tanks in part because you can hop out and heal the fucking thing anywhere even if you don't have a lick of infantry. This is significant and the drawback for this is that usf tanks are not meant to be panthers. The E8s job is to make the enemy NEED panthers. You can bitch and moan about it not beating a Panther and not having the AI to be a t34/85 but here's the thing: the Panther doesn't either, but yours comes out sooner to do what it can in the meantime and they CAN'T build p4s to make up the difference because they will get clubbed like nobody's business.

ALSO there are options beyond the limited ones you propose, ones that arnt shit. The E8 doesn't need changes, the doctrine does. It doesn't need to be made OP so everyone picks it and builds E8s (seriously sit for a second and think of how beyond trash of a suggestion this is. It's a codguy level suggestion) we've already addressed the shit tier idea of making it into a Panther further up (another ill conceived, unthought out suggestion that shows a clear disregard for actually trying to achieve balance)

Seriously awful suggestions that show a clear misunderstanding of the faction, the unit, unit roles, interaction between factions and general common sense of even the lowest fathomable sort.

Your issue then seems to be that you want much more out of the E8 than it's supposed to give. There are an extremely limited number of tanks that can go toe to toe with the Panther. That is by design.
The E8 is not and will not ever be one of those tanks in part because you can hop out and heal the fucking thing anywhere even if you don't have a lick of infantry. This is significant and the drawback for this is that usf tanks are not meant to be panthers. The E8s job is to make the enemy NEED panthers. You can bitch and moan about it not beating a Panther and not having the AI to be a t34/85 but here's the thing: the Panther doesn't either, but yours comes out sooner to do what it can in the meantime and they CAN'T build p4s to make up the difference because they will get clubbed like nobody's business.

ALSO there are options beyond the limited ones you propose, ones that arnt shit. The E8 doesn't need changes, the doctrine does. It doesn't need to be made OP so everyone picks it and builds E8s (seriously sit for a second and think of how beyond trash of a suggestion this is. It's a codguy level suggestion) we've already addressed the shit tier idea of making it into a Panther further up (another ill conceived, unthought out suggestion that shows a clear disregard for actually trying to achieve balance)

Seriously awful suggestions that show a clear misunderstanding of the faction, the unit, unit roles, interaction between factions and general common sense of even the lowest fathomable sort.

you're out of your mind, I haven't ask for anything about the Ez8 and you should be more careful with the way you speak with other people here.
You don't like my ideas fair enough but stick to it and stop trying to insult the person.

Now about your arguments, I'll answer that is it far more efficient to build a dozer to force the panther than an Ez8. I'm pretty sure that if you replace the Ez8 by the dozer blade upgrade the doctrine would be picked even more.