RNG

https://youtu.be/9GlJIjIp9uk?t=1496

This push was the most exciting and amazing play of the tournament and there was absolutely no extreme RNG needed to make it so. As I said - on the contrary, knowing there wasn't a chance of extreme RNG like MGC or abandons may have made Asiamint confident enough to even attempt a push like this.

you can still keep status alignments like MGC and attempt the push? Like it has always been in auto-mmatch
Would figure the outcomes are more exciting and varied. No push outcomes are identical.

Sure if you are asiamint with money at stakes, than no.

But i hate it when a game is designed for monetary rewards. Since i paid money, and have no interest for monetary kick backs, going to vote 'no'.

While you might had gotten bored of say SC2/CS GO, the trends are not there that the general public is abandoning those games in an alarming way. And the CSGO steam numbers don't show that at all.

SC2 made the right call to give attention to other modes outside automatch. It's still the biggest RTS played by quite a big margin, even if we discount the people who play coop/arcade. The SC2 scene suffered after the first years of game released due to stale meta and poor handling of tournaments from Blizz but it's not like it's a bad formula for people who like it. Specially now during the last years with the resurgences of players from other countries outside Korea. Even if Blizz pull the plug this year, i don't think it's going to go anywhere.

Hell, look at what happened with AoE2 during the last 2 years and what the effort of basically a single person did to the scene (Hidden Cup).

What the RTS genre needs is a clear differentiation between automatch/base game and more "for the lulz"/coop modes.


I'm not sure which is the biggest tournament for PUBG, but this year Katowice CSGO tournament had over a million peak viewer number. The only thing i found about PUBG biggest tournament/series put it barely above 100K peak viewers.

The closest thing which can dethrone CS:GO is another pseudo clone, Valorant.

stop chasing 'viewerships', tournments, cups imo.

it is a game, it is meant to be fun, to be creative, to be different.

not a modelling catwalk of copy and paste-ah popluarity for eek-sports money.

SC2 sucks, couldnt keep my interest for a few days. Does it matter if Blizzard 'made the right call'? Hell no.

to be fair, the plane crashes seems coded to home in on squads, a bit cheeky and lazy. But instead of dropping it in coh3, i rather the coders make crashes based on physics and trajectory. And when it hits, boom goes the squad, vehicles or buildings.

is that just a wild theory of yours or do you have any proof to back it up? (i'm genuinely curious)

is that just a wild theory of yours or do you have any proof to back it up? (i'm genuinely curious)

i believe someone brought it up, the coding is cheekily coded to home in on idle/healing units. A simple reduction in homing behaviour and more random-ness (RNG!) will fixed it.

I've always loved the abandoned tanks in CoH2. It's a really cool mechanic (and I absolutely don't care if anyone doesn't like it). Hopefully if CoH3 arrives this mechanic will still be there. This is a mini game inside the game. If some Tiger / IS-2 / JagdTigr / ISU-152 / StoormTiger was thrown around it, an interesting event unfolds. Everyone wants to capture this tank, fix it, destroy it. This is a really cool event, around which a bloody battle can begin.

Great post, totally agreed.

coh1, coh2 thrived on the creators thinking up crazy ideas that 'wont' work in your 'competitive' rts design.

ie. shit coh1/2 came up with, would have been dropped at pre-planning phase of your typical SC or DOTA wannabes.

abandoned vehicle was the last great coh2 addition over coh1, that still remains, in that you can still use enemy tanks. even though chances of abandoned are cut down, time to use abandoned are harder.

stuff like snow/ground deformation affected movement cover, blizzard/fire/ice/water, true-sight, were killed to irrelevance. instead of retaining and improvising.

because eek-sports? seems so.

anyway the point im asking is why should coh move towards eek-sport 'standards'?

to be 'competive', the game designs will move towards conformity, towards simplicity in outcomes.

there is only so much leeway to make lines of 1-0-1-1s codes 'competitive'.

to get eek-sports money? viewerships? to feel 'pride' in being a popular community?

A design of coh3 should retain the amount of creativity and non-conformist outcomes. RNG is a god's give to Coh.

Dow3 failed, failed greatly, deservedly so. There were tons of beta testing feedback to Relic. They stood their grounds and desired for eek-sports.

i believe someone brought it up, the coding is cheekily coded to home in on idle/healing units. A simple reduction in homing behaviour and more random-ness (RNG!) will fixed it.

ah well, guess that answers my question

DoW3 died because they tried to chase the MOBA crowd, not because they reduced RNG.

MGC and other terrible mechanics (Especially Abandons) are not reflective of any sort of skill on the part of a player, and incentivise not making risky (and therefore exciting) plays.

Blizzards were an awful, stupidly designed mechanic, that rewarded extremely (overly) defensive play. One could not assault a position properly during a blizzard, and so you were arbitrarily forced to wait and let your opponent build up unmolested.

The fact the game has done as well as it has is thanks to the Balance team's improvements, which have generally included a reduction in overly impactful RNG. Your anecdotes regarding "my friends" are unimportant.

I would be glad if they did away with MGC, Abandons, and other such things in CoH3, and the game would be far better for it.

There's a degree of short sightedness involved in this overly defensive reaction to people wanting the game improved. Not all mechanics within the game are good ones, this has been shown.

DoW3 died because they tried to chase the MOBA crowd, not because they reduced RNG.

MGC and other terrible mechanics (Especially Abandons) are not reflective of any sort of skill on the part of a player, and incentivise not making risky (and therefore exciting) plays.

Blizzards were an awful, stupidly designed mechanic, that rewarded extremely (overly) defensive play. One could not assault a position properly during a blizzard, and so you were arbitrarily forced to wait and let your opponent build up unmolested.

The fact the game has done as well as it has is thanks to the Balance team's improvements, which have generally included a reduction in overly impactful RNG. Your anecdotes regarding "my friends" are unimportant.

I would be glad if they did away with MGC, Abandons, and other such things in CoH3, and the game would be far better for it.

There's a degree of short sightedness involved in this overly defensive reaction to people wanting the game improved. Not all mechanics within the game are good ones, this has been shown.

No, just no.

btw blizzards, with how it was implemented, is not good admittedbly. But not to the point of removing entirely.
Tweak instead of discard. That is the point.

Again, the whole push for 'skill' plays is nothing but toning out the possibilites of creativity and variety in outcomes.

may as well make 1-1 reskinned armies with slight difference in offfensive and defensive stats and 100% deterministic outcome

if coh3 is to designed, i want relic to brainstorm what crazy mechanics we can do with more powerful cpu and gpu and ssd now. Fly free and dump as much madness into the mechanics.
Balance and whatnot can be toned down later.

Instead of being concerned coh2 had low viewership, fearful it was not in line with 'competitive' rts acceptance, and we needed to keep the mechanics simple and 'bland' this round. Do away with more variables, the better!

cos' eek-sport

creativity is a premium while conformity is cheap and easy.

anyway the oft-cited MGC status alignment, in the past, it was more creative.

But after many patches, the TTK vehicles are much shorter, the armor, the pen, and the snares, the range.

It may cause 'competitive' players to feel frustrated when hit with RNG MGC. but that is partly because of the above mentioned changes to compress the game towards speedy 'competitive' completion.

Thats why i say, to be 'competitive', there is only so much variables you can have, until it causes frustration and they becomes 'non-competitive' and 'pro' players plead to dump as many 1-0-0-1 variables

cos eek-sports

Great post, totally agreed.

coh1, coh2 thrived on the creators thinking up crazy ideas that 'wont' work in your 'competitive' rts design.

ie. shit coh1/2 came up with, would have been dropped at pre-planning phase of your typical SC or DOTA wannabes.

abandoned vehicle was the last great coh2 addition over coh1, that still remains, in that you can still use enemy tanks. even though chances of abandoned are cut down, time to use abandoned are harder.

stuff like snow/ground deformation affected movement cover, blizzard/fire/ice/water, true-sight, were killed to irrelevance. instead of retaining and improvising.

because eek-sports? seems so.

Another point to which I have never personally had any pretensions - the appearance of infantry units from behind the map. It looked very organic in the game, as it should be. But apparently for the sake of timing for cyber athletes, this was changed. And when an infantry squad leaves from a small building, I have only one association:
Show Spoiler

I didn't say they weren't. I am saying abandons are bad, not RNG in general...


That is literally not true. Whether or not you provide vision for your barrage makes a HUGE difference. The scatter also changes depending on range, so where you fire from/place the arty piece is also very important


The amount of AT sources has nothing to do with whether or not a tank gets abandoned. It can be a 1 on 1 fight or a massive brawl, that's completely irrelevant


You clearly said greedy players deserve that outcome of giving a tank away. I'm saying losing a tank is more than enough punishment


And this is why I'm "foaming". This point is completely invalid and really fucking annoying. As I have already said I love the RNG of coh. The entire game runs on RNG. I am talking about one specific example of it

Telling me to go play a completely different style of RTS when I am talking about one specific mechanic is ridiculous

Yeah sorry i am the one going way overboard here, again my apologies. It wont happen again.

Ml20 off maps etc do indeed benefit from vision, i am not deneying that. it decreases the massive chance they hit nothing.

Amount of at increases the chance to get mgc or abandon, same with low pen and high rof or more units increase chance to pen afaik. The turn around woudnt have been so great if he didn,t push so hard with 1 tank vs 2 meds and 2 atg's into the enemy base.

What i said was het got punished for over extending his single tank vs 4 at sources. Even without the mgc and abandon he would loose the p4 regardless. The soviet player deserved that kill. That it all that happend in the enemy base was made possible by the ost player, if he had p tact or vet 1 blits he would have a good chance to save the p4.

What i do find over the top is that the mgc p4 got abandond as well within seconds of getting mgc. I am all for needing conditions or bigger theshholds to limit such rng, but never outside tournaments remove them outright.

To me such games are more fun and exciting to watch and play then massive rng clean tournament games. Those are mostly decided in the first few minutes, this is why i cant enjoy sc2 streams once behind you dont have a real chance off coming back, its just delaying the inevatable.

Again my apologies for before, you dont deserve my "foaming" rants.

what is B though?

to be fair, the plane crashes seems coded to home in on squads, a bit cheeky and lazy. But instead of dropping it in coh3, i rather the coders make crashes based on physics and trajectory. And when it hits, boom goes the squad, vehicles or buildings.

Right now, instead of doing near zero damages, we should explore the lines of code and reduce the homing in on squads, be more random as it should, and not silently removed.

btw how do you consider sight flares though? that is one no counter play, that you can trigger 100% at your own decision?

"the plane crashes seems coded to home in on squads, a bit cheeky and lazy. "

That's literally not the case, it's just that planes naturally travel over high traffic areas due to their way-points.

"that you can trigger 100% at your own decision?" you answered your own question.

Amount of at increases the chance to get mgc or abandon,

It does sort of increase chances for main gun criticals, but not for abandons. Abandons are truly random

Main gun criticals are more common with "higher" ROF weapons that can damage tanks, because the chance rolls each time that weapon does damage to tank that's below the health threshold (ostwinds and ptrs for example are really good at causing main gun crits). The abandon critical only happens when the tank dies, so the amount of AT doesn't matter

No apology necessary mate, sorry if I came across angry. I've just read the "play a different game" argument a few too many times

"the plane crashes seems coded to home in on squads, a bit cheeky and lazy. "

That's literally not the case, it's just that planes naturally travel over high traffic areas due to their way-points.

"that you can trigger 100% at your own decision?" you answered your own question.

that is good to know the planes are not hard coded to target squads. In that case, i think the nerf is too heavy handed. meh.

As for manual trigger 100%, that means 100% abusing un-counterable outcome, which is 100% unfair.

unlike uncounterable RNG, that we assume has a 50-50% of happening to you.

stop chasing 'viewerships', tournments, cups imo.

it is a game, it is meant to be fun, to be creative, to be different.

not a modelling catwalk of copy and paste-ah popluarity for eek-sports money.

SC2 sucks, couldnt keep my interest for a few days. Does it matter if Blizzard 'made the right call'? Hell no.

You should make a game which everyone wants to play. Both the casual and the one who is trying to improve in the ladder. What i'm pointing out, is that in the last 10 years or so, the trend on RTS has moved away from the traditional PvP model, at least in terms of catching the most amount of people possible.

If this game had the same accessibility and modes as SC2, i'm sure way less people would play automatch. This game has no "ladder" anxiety cause there's no difference between playing casually or trying to improve your rank as they are put in the same pool.


SC2 doesn't sucks, it's simple not for your taste. Objectively is a great game, because it not only good for those who like it for their 1v1 PvP mode, but for whatever else it can offer.


This is why it's sad to argue with people who lack a broader perspective or talk through ignorance. I'm not saying to copy 1:1 the gameplay of SC2. It would never work for COH2. What i'm saying is to copy what things would benefit the game.


You can complain all you want about the direction of the game, the reality is that more people are playing the game right now than what they did back in 2013.


BTW: i'm in the boat of not removing things, just making less stupid their requirements and effects. I prefer RNG which creates scenarios that makes the player have to react in a different way, not just removing options from the player.

-Main engine dmg is way better than having a random immobilization. Leave that for specific mines.

-Rather than randomly have main gun destroyed, i would rather have things like turret lock, injured loader (basically worst RoF), MG gunner disabled (for those with an MG upgrade), why not have a crit which reduces vision of a vehicle. Or one that affects targeting so you can only do attack ground. Anything other than disabling your main gun through a random dmg source.

I wouldn't mind MGC if it procs after say the vehicle is lower than 20% HP, the vehicle already has some sort of crit (engine dmg) and someone uses another snare.

I think the problem with RNG in COH2 is that is basically a consequence of the penetration system being reworked from Vanilla COH. What I mean is, in vanilla a bouncing shot would still do damage, just reduced, so this in turn meant that tank interactions had a wider range of play.

In COH2, a shot either pens or doesn't, either deals damage or not. So this creates a situation where tank destroyers need absurd pen values at absurd ranges to be useful, and every other tank basically needs to suicide dive to actually deal damage, and in suicie dives, with more factors at play and higeher risk situations, main gun crits, engine damage, abandons, etc become more impactful and decisive.

So now the system, becomes binary, where a crit is not a interesting situation that happens at mid to long range, or two various factors, it becomes an all or nothign moment with tanks in close proximity and usually one side in a very bad position, making it worse.

If the penetration system were to be reworked, to make damage more reliable but less 100 or nothing, rng crits would become more reasonable and less decisive, while still being a powerful moment that gives both players a change to play around it, instead of a you got a main gun crit at point blank, sucks, now your tank dies and it's abandonded in my side of the map.

nope, MGC and abandons are fun RNG.

abandons was one improvished ideas from coh1.
when coh2 already toned down coh1 ideas, even dropping snow and blizzard along the way.

One of the best things Relic ever did, without a doubt, after CoH2 was released.
Was to remove blizzard and deep snow.

The Main issue with COH 2 RNG is that it is too extreme. You can land a perfect grenade and it will do no damage, other times it will do a full squad wipe. RNG is good and fun when it is not to the extreme that it is in COH 2. You have RNG that will literally cost you the game and that is the part that frustrates people the most. For example, take any mortar at the start of the game. Most of the time it does nothing then it gets lucky and literally wipes the squad (one of the reasons why Whermacht cry about USF Pak Howitzer).