RNG

I think ideally RNG would be split three ways:

- regular RNG like accuracy. Same as now. This is what makes the series truly stand out;
- irregular RNG like main gun critical or plane crashes. These should be available in automatch, but they should be less impactful. For example MGC could give an accuracy penalty rather than completely destroying the gun, or plane crashes could be hardcapped to never kill entire squads;
- Esports mode that removes all irregular RNG for tournaments.

This

There's an alternative to "hit or miss, penetrate or not" of Company of Heroes and "always hit for damage minus resistances" of many other games.

Weapons would still have accuracy and penetration values, and units would still have target size (i.e. received accuracy) and armour values. When a shot is fired, it will always connect with its target, but the damage dealt would be multiplied by chance to hit and chance to penetrate. For example, your gun deals 100 damage and has 100 penetration and 0,75 accuracy. Your target has 120 armour and size 0,90. Effective damage dealt would be:

Damage * (Penetration/Armour) * (Accuracy * Target size) = Effective Damage
100 * (100/120) * (0,75 * 0,9) = 56.25

Taking into account that all of those values are affected by other conditions (distance from target, movement of the target/shooter, frontal/rear armour) and expanding range definition with a continuous function instead of just close/mid/far for additional variety, no two games would play the same despite effectively removing randomness. In this system positioning would be paramount, even more so than in current CoH2 implementation. Few meters would be the difference between losing a tank or it surviving with a sliver of health.

And yes, it wouldn't be very realistic and misses have cinematic charm to them, but with proper effects it would look just as good to the viewer (e.g. huge particle explosion and tank rocking when it receives hefty damage, rounds bouncing off armour like in CoH1 when the penetration is very low).

That's just multiple resistances...
For reference, check DoW1, DoW2 and Spellforce 3.

It also looks terribly bad in setting that is not fast or large scale enough.

I think ideally RNG would be split three ways:

- regular RNG like accuracy. Same as now. This is what makes the series truly stand out;
- irregular RNG like main gun critical or plane crashes. These should be available in automatch, but they should be less impactful. For example MGC could give an accuracy penalty rather than completely destroying the gun, or plane crashes could be hardcapped to never kill entire squads;
- Esports mode that removes all irregular RNG for tournaments.





If that were true, we would see a decline in player numbers over the past years as the game has become more competitively focused. However, the opposite has happened; the playerbase has been growing. The player numbers themselves don't tell us anything without deeper research.

I disagree. The number of people is about the same. But, big but. A lot of people are leave - that's a fact. A lot of people didn't like the changes. But in their place have come many other people who love these simplifications. And in general, this can be said to be replaced by a lot of Chinese players. Take the Men of War 2 (they are the same age as Company of Heroes 2). Its numbers have not changed either, but there are no changes - the same people remained there.

I disagree. The number of people is about the same.

Over 2018 for most of the year average players was 3500-4000. Peak players was around 7000.
Over 2020 for most of the year average players was 5000-6000. Peak players was around 9000-10.000.
https://steamcharts.com/app/231430

The playerbase has grown. That is a fact. Though we can only speculate as to why.

A lot of people are leave - that's a fact. A lot of people didn't like the changes.

Do you actually have any proof of this?

Over 2018 for most of the year average players was 3500-4000. Peak players was around 7000.
Over 2020 for most of the year average players was 5000-6000. Peak players was around 9000-10.000.
https://steamcharts.com/app/231430

The playerbase has grown. That is a fact. Though we can only speculate as to why.



Do you actually have any proof of this?

I was in groups where people played in the Company of Heroes. And people leave, I ask why - the answer is a similar game they no longer like. You may not accept it. But I think that the people who loved the more hardcore Company of Heroes 2 are leaving and the softcore is coming.

I was in groups where people played in the Company of Heroes. And people leave, I ask why - the answer is a similar game they no longer like. You may not accept it. But I think that the people who loved the more hardcore Company of Heroes 2 are leaving and the softcore is coming.

So... they got bored of the game.

Because there is no alternative to coh2 on the market, so they most certainly did not went to play other RTS.

I was in groups where people played in the Company of Heroes. And people leave, I ask why - the answer is a similar game they no longer like. You may not accept it.

So you have anecdotal quotes from a handful of friends. I wouldn't exactly call that a fact or representative enough to present as proof that supposedly many players are leaving or why.

So... they got bored of the game.

Because there is no alternative to coh2 on the market, so they most certainly did not went to play other RTS.

Unfortunately yes, there is no alternative for Company of Heroes. Many people stayed for this reason, many left because they didn’t need where the patches were going. Many came because she became like that. I can tell you about myself. Previously, the game could give a ton of adrenaline and a sleepless night because of this - now it is not.

So you have anecdotal quotes from a handful of friends. I wouldn't exactly call that a fact or representative enough to present as proof that supposedly many players are leaving or why.

These are dozens and dozens of people from groups. Not some friends.

Unfortunately yes, there is no alternative for Company of Heroes. Many people stayed for this reason, many left because they didn’t need where the patches were going. Many came because she became like that. I can tell you about myself. Previously, the game could give a ton of adrenaline and a sleepless night because of this - now it is not.

Even the best dish on the planet will get boring if you eat it every day.
That's all I have to say here.

Even the best dish on the planet will get boring if you eat it every day.
That's all I have to say here.

Therefore, only new content is important to me. To refresh the taste or rekindle a new flame.

Therefore, only new content is important to me. To refresh the taste or rekindle a new flame.

Meta altering balance patches is all you'll get.
No point complaining, because nothing else will ever come again, because the game is no longer supported by relic.

Meta altering balance patches is all you'll get.
No point complaining, because nothing else will ever come again, because the game is no longer supported by relic.

If Relic would give modding tools with the ability to add models. Now, by the age of 7, there would be a ton of mods, units and abilities that could be added to the game right now. Instead of trying to chew on the statistics of the same units forever and forever.

If Relic would give modding tools with the ability to add models. Now, by the age of 7, there would be a ton of mods, units and abilities that could be added to the game right now. Instead of trying to chew on the statistics of the same units forever and forever.

You should get the message about modding tools after 7 years now.
That'll never come.

hmmm... I mean RNG is(or rather was) the beauty of the game. Pens are almost no longer rng now tbh. every competent at pens everything at any range.
Honestly the stupid stuff like rando crit effect, planes killing everything should have removed or should have been toggle able options.
I don't know, i like some of the RNG like cover, inf vs inf combat, artillery rng and what not and hate the ones that swing the balance of a match without skill involved. I liked pens too now it feels like armor has no effect.

That's just multiple resistances...
For reference, check DoW1, DoW2 and Spellforce 3.

It also looks terribly bad in setting that is not fast or large scale enough.

It's not really just multiple resistances, because normally resistances aren't affected by unit's positioning (i.e. distance from each other, movement and rear/frontal armour). I'm not sure what's to reference in DoW1 and DoW2 as from what I remember they use system fairly similar to CoH1, with armour types for units and guns using damage types (which are simplified form of target tables from CoH1), although it was years ago and they didn't interest me as much as CoH series, so I might be forgetting something crucial. However, I have no experience with Spellforce 3, so could you briefly explain how damage is handled in there?

And I think that this system wouldn't look any worse than two tanks missing each other at point-blank range.

Indeed no to games need the same mechanics for retreat. But i fear this may happen with such abilities. What i have seen in in esports rts games retreat is mass teleport as a abilitie for 1 maybe 2 units/heroes.

In both cases of wc3 and sc2 this is a "mass" teleport? Wc3 is ages ago for me and havent played sc2. In coh and dow2 its per inf squad ofc, for dow3 they said this retreat is basicly wrong cuz the kill/wipe was deserved and robs players of a deserved wipe or kill.

To me this is an indication that coh as it is designed wont do well in esports, they changed dow 3 really drasticly in their attempt to appeal the esports crowd.

SC2 is not designed around retreat as units don't have "veterancy". Same deal with AOE2. Economy/teching plays a much bigger factor.

In SC2, Protoss are the race which have generally the few/expensive units with a high survivability if played well, therefore it kinda makes sense for them to have this 2 abilities (the nitty gritty TBF is solving meta problems). I forgot but Terrans have an "escape" ability which lets them teleport anywhere on the map on a long cd and that can be used both offensively and defensively.

WC3: i've already said that 2 races can buy an item which let's them retreat "on demand" single units from the front. The game is designed and focus around heroes and compared to COH, outside of multiple heroes using abilities, there's not much "burst damage", specially early game, so units can retreat normally with a right click back to base.


The success of an e-sport game is entirely depended on how easy is to organize a tournament and how many people are willing to watch it and support it. It doesn't care if the game has retreat mechanics or not. RNG or not. Poker is a thing. Hearthstone/Magic are a thing. WC3/AOE2 has RNG and they are still kings, even if they are "small" compared to others, they remain relevant after decades. People play competitevely Super Smash Brothers for eons even if the game lead designers call it a "party game" riddle with random items drops and effects and Nintendo have been trying to kill the "e-sport" side for years.


Obviously people have different opinions about what is too much or not RNG but i think Sanders simplify it well in something that i agree with (i don't mind point blank misses that much compared to say Whiteflash).

I think ideally RNG would be split three ways:

- regular RNG like accuracy. Same as now. This is what makes the series truly stand out;
- irregular RNG like main gun critical or plane crashes. These should be available in automatch, but they should be less impactful. For example MGC could give an accuracy penalty rather than completely destroying the gun, or plane crashes could be hardcapped to never kill entire squads;
- Esports mode that removes all irregular RNG for tournaments.

Basically this. Just for clarification i think that having main gun destroy is fine as long as it's gated behind other proper triggers which can be player influenced. And we have crits in the game (which are not used) which can affect offensive performance without completely killing it.

To make it simple, why does vehicles do not get immobilized after hitting 25% instead of engine dmg? Because the penalty is too severe for something which can be outside of the players realm, both the one on the receiving end and the one dealing it. Same thing principle should be applied to the gun.

Both of these statements are somewhat correct.

If we take the most competitive RTS games right now, those being Starcraft 2 and Age of Empires 2 (DE) you can view both there.

While StarCraft is asymmetrically designed it has basically 0 RNG and of course it's balanced according to the top "pros".

However that makes it largely difficult for more casual people to enjoy the game I would say and most are reduced to treating it like it's European football/soccer where you stare at a screen yelling for your favorite guy not to lose and screaming like a retard when he makes a mistake.

In Age of Empires 2 (And I am specifically talking about the Definitive Edition here because most of the community has migrated over to it due to it's better graphics, improvements and continued support) the civilizations are somewhat mirrored with some minor differences with unique techs, buildings and units which in my opinion works best.

Again of course the game is balanced according to the top players, however there is also room for the casual people and I would say this is why the game is proving to be so popular to both camps. Plus I also believe it has somewhat of an RNG presence simply because not all shots hit their targets like in StarCraft and units are not exactly robots that instantly take orders and turn on a dime and so forth but I would also say that makes the game feel more "alive" and "natural" rather than the almost perfect movement and response of units in SC. And like in that game units don't shoot on the move either.

I personally think that CoH should do the same, as in have somewhat symmetrical design for it's Armies with little quarks for each while keeping the balance asymmetrical and balanced from the top down.

Because right now it feels like it's heavily geared towards competitive play and the casual people which are a bigger part of the community feel left out.

I also believe that the player numbers and statistics speak for themselves:

https://steamdb.info/app/813780/

https://steamdb.info/app/231430/

I think it's a rather different cause.

People can rally behind the competitive scene while also enjoying plenty of other things which are aimed towards the more casual players, even though the base PvP game is not changed with them in mind.

Compare the modding capabilities and custom games modes from WC3/SC2/AoE2. Even if Blizzard basically got swallowed by Activision, they basically got a free more years of support for SC2 by having a extremely popular coop mode. They made the base game free (IIRC), same with the arcade mode, which is way simpler to install, boot and play.

Similar cases with WC3/AOE2.

These are dozens and dozens of people from groups. Not some friends.

Dozens. Even from the same groups. Out of a playerbase that consists of up to tens if not hundreds of thousands of players. Hardly representative data is it?

...

That's just multiple resistances...
For reference, check DoW1, DoW2 and Spellforce 3.

It also looks terribly bad in setting that is not fast or large scale enough.

While i think i understand what you are trying to imply, we almost had a model like that in the first days/beta of the game. But it's a nightmare to balance if all units behave in that way. Maybe it's worth trying again (deflection dmg) for CoH3 and applying a similar concept for infantry as well (early days all infantry had armor) with say "glancing" dmg been a thing for a failed penetration.