Conscripts Ppsh assault package - Late game idea

PPSh-41 should not be a doctrinal upgrade, it should be an alternative upgrade for the 7th person. Also, to be an "assault package" when purchasing a PPSh-41, Molotov must be replaced with RGD-33 / RG-42. DP-27 replaces the PPSh-41 in commanding ability.

+1

They fell out of favor after the the upgrade for increased to 60 muni. The big bonus for them was that they were cheap and could come out pretty quickly and could put on a lot of pressure in the mid game. They also got overtaken by more powerful upgrades in the SVTs and 7th Man upgrades making them even more undesirable. I think they should either be reverted to 45 muni, or be given more for 60 muni (Better close dps or maybe a grenade along with the ppshs).

PPSh-41 should not be a doctrinal upgrade, it should be an alternative upgrade for the 7th person. Also, to be an "assault package" when purchasing a PPSh-41, Molotov must be replaced with RGD-33 / RG-42. DP-27 replaces the PPSh-41 in commanding ability.

+1

exactly this.

I think if the PPSh's are going to stay the way they are, they should either be reduced to 40-45 and made 1 CP or give them 1-2 more PPSh's per squad so they at least beat 5-man Grens at close range.

I think if the PPSh's are going to stay the way they are, they should either be reduced to 40-45 and made 1 CP or give them 1-2 more PPSh's per squad so they at least beat 5-man Grens at close range.

Given the poor survivability of individual Conscript models, I think giving them extra PPSh's isn't as good as directly buffing the ones they already have since model drops are going to hit their DPS harder.

If conscripts get, 6 ppsh as they should the weapons need to be toned down since they will have more DPS than units like the assault grenadiers.

Your suggestion was interesting to me so I would like to dissect it a big and lay out why I think it wouldn't work, because I've had similar ideas when brainstorming ways to add more SMG's to Soviets. (Seriously, it's a crime that the faction that manufactured more smg's than every other country combined, has access to NONE!)

What you suggest is taking the total DPS of current PPSh Conscripts (3smg/3rifle) and dividing it among 6 PPSh's. What this gets you is essentially a 6 man Pioneer squad, because the resulting DPS is near identical to the Pioneer's MP 40. Assault Grenadiers would simply wipe the floor with this unit, there would be no contest, this so poor of a unit that I thought even at T1/T2 would be too weak.

Now, 6 Conscript PPSh's with their current stats is only about 8 DPS higher than 5 Assault Grenadier MP 40's, but if you factor in the differences in target sizes, both sides should be theoretically about equal anyway, with a slight edge toward Conscripts in my tests. There is no simply reason to massively nerf the PPSh down to Pioneer MP 40 level and still have it come as late as it does with the price point it has.

For Conscript Assault Package, I think it needs to be cheaper and I would like if the PPSh dropoff were reduced so it didn't harm your DPS at any ranges. I would like PPSh to be a stock upgrade, but that seems extremely unlikely due to the idea that Conscripts are strictly for support and are not actually line infantry.

Now personally, since everyone in charge is firmly against allowing Conscripts to have PPSh's, I still think a new dedicated Assault unit using either Conscript PPSh or a marginally weaker (but not Pioneer weak) variant would be a welcome addition to the faction. It would also have the benefit of being easier to balance, since anti-tank grenades or merge might be too versatile for a dedicated assaulter. I would give them F1 Grenades, based off weak Panzerfusilier grenade, and maybe the ability to toss 3 RPG-40 anti-tank grenades (Weak no-crit ATnades from Anti-Tank Conscripts).

Now personally, since everyone in charge is firmly against allowing Conscripts to have PPSh's, I still think a new dedicated Assault unit using either Conscript PPSh or a marginally weaker (but not Pioneer weak) variant would be a welcome addition to the faction. It would also have the benefit of being easier to balance, since anti-tank grenades or merge might be too versatile for a dedicated assaulter. I would give them F1 Grenades, based off weak Panzerfusilier grenade, and maybe the ability to toss 3 RPG-40 anti-tank grenades (Weak no-crit ATnades from Anti-Tank Conscripts).

So Cav Rifles for Soviets?

So Cav Rifles for Soviets?

Cav Rifles, Assault Grens, Bald Shock Troops, however you want to look at it. The idea is that because Conscripts are strictly support and Soviet's used a lot of SMG's, they would have a dedicated assault unit as an alternative to weapon upgrades. Speaking of upgrades, unlike Cav Rifle they won't have weapon upgrades, although perhaps T4 could grant them Shock Troop PPSh's.

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Conscript's PPsh has 9.7 DPS at range 10 total DPS for squad is 58.2
Assault grenadier's have 10.2 at range 10 total DPS for squad is 51.6 when upgrade 61.8

With 6 PPsh conscripts a 240/60 mu squad would perform close to upgrade assault grenadiers a 280+60 BP2 squad...

Pioneers have 6.8 at range 8 total DPS for squad is 32 so the distance between ppsh conscripts and pioneer is huge.

As for stock PPsh for Soviet I see 2 options either Penal can be redesigned to have them or CE can get them.

Conscript's PPsh has 9.7 DPS at range 10 total DPS for squad is 58.2
Assault grenadier's have 10.2 at range 10 total DPS for squad is 51.6 when upgrade 61.8

With 6 PPsh conscripts a 240/60 mu squad would perform close to upgrade assault grenadiers a 280+60 BP2 squad...

Not terribly bad for something that comes at 2CP as opposed to 0CP. It seems quite obvious that upgraded Assault Grenadiers are clearly superior, now having both superior DPS and target size.

Pioneers have 6.8 at range 8 total DPS for squad is 32 so the distance between ppsh conscripts and pioneer is huge.

I meant per-man, it is Pioneers; hence calling them a 6 man Pioneer Squad. Their DPS would be 6.6 per-PPSh, compared to 6.8 per-MP 40 (Pioneer). It would be the weakest SMG unit in the game that isn't a builder unit.

Not terribly bad for something that comes at 2CP as opposed to 0CP. It seems quite obvious that upgraded Assault Grenadiers are clearly superior, now having both superior DPS and target size.

Not really.
Conscripts are "CP 0" also, only the upgrade comes at CP2.

And no Assault grenadier would be inferior since they are 5 men not 6 with less durability and more DPS drop off.

(keep in mind that AG cost more and do not have any AT)

I meant per-man, it is Pioneers; hence calling them a 6 man Pioneer Squad. Their DPS would be 6.6 per-PPSh, compared to 6.8 per-MP 40. It would be the weakest SMG unit in the game that isn't a builder unit.

Unit performance is combination of DPS and durability pioneer with 4 model simply can not attack other units. The comparison is simply misleading.

Not really.
Conscripts are "CP 0" also, only the upgrade comes at CP2.

And no Assault grenadier would be inferior since they are 5 men not 6 with less durability and more DPS drop off.

(keep in mind that AG cost more and do not have any AT)

Although I have not tested it, I think it's easy to predict that higher DPS and lower Target Size is going to make up for the -1 model disadvantage. I would throw together some tests, but I do not have the time this evening. Had I functioning mod tools I'd also test the Pioneer PPSh version as well, but that I might have to just do by spawning 6 Pioneers and pretending they're Conscripts.

Also, when Conscripts hit the field is irrelevant because we're talking exclusively about Conscripts equipped with a theoretical 6PPSh version of the Conscript Assault Package, unless of course this a theoretical version is also available at 0CP which isn't outside the realm of possibility, but hasn't been explicitly mentioned.

Unit performance is combination of DPS and durability pioneer with 4 model simply can not attack other units. The comparison is simply misleading.

Very clearly I said 6-man Pioneers. This unit does not exist, but it can be imagined easily, it's just Pioneers but with 2 more. That is what those Conscripts would be comparable to. I'm sure you can imagine that a 6 man Pioneer squad would be acceptable fighters against unupgraded units at best.

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Point is that conscripts are useful and gain veterancy before CP2.

The extra model if far more important than received accuracy modifier:
Assault grenadier have 421 EHP
Conscripts have 440 EHP and 478 by vet 1

The additional entity makes it easier to focus fire on enemy entities and lose less DPS with casualties.

I can probably MOD 6 ppsh if you want to test them.

I can probably MOD 6 ppsh if you want to test them.

Alright I ran some tests to try and get some decent data. 7 tests of variable scenarios:

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Overall I was surprised, the Conscripts and Pioneer Conscripts both exceeded my expectations. It looks like you were right, they would moderately outclass unupgraded Assault Grenadiers.

While the weakened Assault Package would clearly be ineffective against any other assault unit, it's not as poor as I thought it would be, capable of fending off upgraded Grenadiers after a charge. While a middle-ground between the Pioneer MP 40 and Conscript PPSh might be a good balance point for a new stock SMG squad, for Conscript Assault Package I would prefer it stay as is and just come at a reduced price or earlier time; the weakened PPSh would certainly be a nerf.

Not gonna lie, these Pioneer MP 40's are making me think that Assault Osttruppen might be fun to see.

snip

You completely misunderstood his suggestion.

He did NOT wanted to give them just 6 ppsh.
He wanted to give them 6 ppsh but keep the same DPS as 3 mosins and 3 ppsh.
He specifically said that earlier.

It should provide 6 ppsh but the individual DPs should be adjusted so the total close DPS remains the same.

So you need to mod it a bit further and give them weaker ppsh then ones partisans use.

You completely misunderstood his suggestion.

He did NOT wanted to give them just 6 ppsh.
He wanted to give them 6 ppsh but keep the same DPS as 3 mosins and 3 ppsh.
He specifically said that earlier.

I understood it perfectly, the 6 PPSh's unaltered was my suggestion. Using Pioneer's was meant to reflect his suggestion of a weaker PPSh. My conclusion is that this isn't as bad as I thought, but is not desirable as a Conscript upgrade at all because you would lose more DPS with each model lost.

So you need to mod it a bit further and give them weaker ppsh then ones partisans use.

Unless the website is wrong, the only difference is the Partisan PPSh has a half second longer reload time than the Conscript PPSh.

I understood it perfectly, the 6 PPSh's unaltered was my suggestion.

Ah, I've missed that.

Unless the website is wrong, the only difference is the Partisan PPSh has a half second longer reload time than the Conscript PPSh.

Negligibly, but yeah, partisan ppsh got lower dps.

Nice to see that you actually tested the performance.
Well done.

Maybe a 10% recieved accuracy buff at t4?

What PPSH Conscripts are facing: STG Volks, PGrens, Sturmpioneers and Fallschirmjagers all of which utterly murder murder PPSH Cons.

What MP-40 VGs are facing: Shock troops, commandos, Ranger,Paras, assault officer all of which utterly murder MP-40 VGs.

PPSH Cons are so bad because they were balanced before OKW existed and before Panzer Grens were buffed and dominated the meta.

That is incorrect. PPsh conscripts where buffed during DB and where very popular at the time.