[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

Grens are indeed really good infrantry, they are not weak by any means. The MG42 should be moved to T1 and grens back to T0.

If you're playing versus someone who knows how to use the MG42 aggressively instead of it sitting idle in some building or protecting some cutoff, it is pretty OP

Grens are indeed really good infrantry, they are not weak by any means. The MG42 should be moved to T1 and grens back to T0.

If you're playing versus someone who knows how to use the MG42 aggressively instead of it sitting idle in some building or protecting some cutoff, it is pretty OP

the debate is about lmg42 the weapon upgrade and not the hmg42 the support weapon.

So I want to repeat this but Penals still have this massive issue of expensive back techs to get basic tools like support weapons.
We saw the OKW get some changes to their teching so it's easier to get Medics if they are skipped. Penals should get a similar treatment because imo their back tech is far more important to the late game compared to medics.

Something like significantly reducing the cost of T2 and T1 once a player gets T4 would still leave penals without AT guns until the late game where it otherwise becomes very hard to function without them. It would also technically give the option to get T1 for builds that didn't get it although there's often little reason to. Without something like this Penals are still just have this big issue of having to do an expensive back tech delaying their late game even further.

Random tidbit: The Merge Icon on Conscripts still says "Cannot merge with Sniper Squad." That is redundant information.

Random tidbit: The Merge Icon on Conscripts still says "Cannot merge with Sniper Squad." That is redundant information.

Technically, its not incorrect

So I want to repeat this but Penals still have this massive issue of expensive back techs to get basic tools like support weapons.
We saw the OKW get some changes to their teching so it's easier to get Medics if they are skipped. Penals should get a similar treatment because imo their back tech is far more important to the late game compared to medics.

Something like significantly reducing the cost of T2 and T1 once a player gets T4 would still leave penals without AT guns until the late game where it otherwise becomes very hard to function without them. It would also technically give the option to get T1 for builds that didn't get it although there's often little reason to. Without something like this Penals are still just have this big issue of having to do an expensive back tech delaying their late game even further.

You cant look at OKW, this comparison cant be more wrong really. OKW got tech changes not to provide you with full access to backtech tier, but to give you access to medics, since its a basic tool, which never should have been locked behind chose. You still have to pay just as much, if you decide to fully unlock med track units.

Right now soviet T1 and T2 in their core idea, arent meant to be used at the same time without any resource punishment.

In its core this idea that "Either T1 or T2" is the opened pandora box. Because idealy both T1 and T2 units should justify skipping each other, and they are by far dont, well T1 at least. Because in any case, if you are unable to roflstomp your opponent with T1 and force him to surrender and completly baselock him, you will still need T2 at least for an AT gun.

Personnaly I think this is over-all bad desing, and T3 should requare both T1 and T2 to be build, with proper cost ajustment ofcourse. In this case at least whole soviet T1\T2 units can be balanced in context that you will always have access to them, because they are part of your tech and not self sufficient buildings, which ideally should provide whole roster of self-sufficient units.

Right now soviet T1 and T2 in their core idea, arent meant to be used at the same time without any resource punishment.

And you really have only 2 options here.

Make both tiers have viable AI and AT options OR do something with accessibility to one when you got other.
You can't do both, but current status quo can't and won't stay either.

And you really have only 2 options here.

Make both tiers have viable AI and AT options OR do something with accessibility to one when you got other.
You can't do both, but current status quo can't and won't stay either.

Well as I said, I wouldnt fiddle with accessibility, but rather make them cheaper, to keep resources investement the same as if you went for only one tier, or maybe just a little bit expensive and cut this expenses from T3, but make them both requared for T3.

Because ideally, this whole balance idea behind them as they are right now, is only somewhat working in 1v1. While even in 2v2 it goes into shitter like instantly.

You cant look at OKW, this comparison cant be more wrong really. OKW got tech changes not to provide you with full access to backtech tier, but to give you access to medics, since its a basic tool, which never should have been locked behind chose. You still have to pay just as much, if you decide to fully unlock med track units.

Right now soviet T1 and T2 in their core idea, arent meant to be used at the same time without any resource punishment.

In its core this idea that "Either T1 or T2" is the opened pandora box. Because idealy both T1 and T2 units should justify skipping each other, and they are by far dont, well T1 at least. Because in any case, if you are unable to roflstomp your opponent with T1 and force him to surrender and completly baselock him, you will still need T2 at least for an AT gun.

Personnaly I think this is over-all bad desing, and T3 should requare both T1 and T2 to be build, with proper cost ajustment ofcourse. In this case at least whole soviet T1\T2 units can be balanced in context that you will always have access to them, because they are part of your tech and not self sufficient buildings, which ideally should provide whole roster of self-sufficient units.

You are still getting access to ISG, which is more than enough of what you need. It's the fuel based vehicles which are locked, from which only 1 is really needed late into the game if you need AA.

You cant look at OKW, this comparison cant be more wrong really. OKW got tech changes not to provide you with full access to backtech tier, but to give you access to medics, since its a basic tool, which never should have been locked behind chose. You still have to pay just as much, if you decide to fully unlock med track units.

So are things like an AT Gun or MG are not a basic tool? Soviet T1 ends up giving up any form of support weapons until they do a very expensive back tech (in terms of how Soviet tech is set up). OKW for comparison is always gonna have access to both their MG and AT throughout the game so the backtech for medics/ISG is now even easier and isn't as pressing an issue. A soviet backtech to T2 essentially just gives them access to everything the OKW would get just in a different way. OKW backtechs for Medics and ISG while SOviets have to back tech for AT Guns, MGs, and the mortar. I would say AT Guns are much more important to have than medics in the late game yet the Soviets have a bigger cost to backtech for them

Right now soviet T1 and T2 in their core idea, arent meant to be used at the same time without any resource punishment.

In its core this idea that "Either T1 or T2" is the opened pandora box. Because idealy both T1 and T2 units should justify skipping each other, and they are by far dont, well T1 at least. Because in any case, if you are unable to roflstomp your opponent with T1 and force him to surrender and completly baselock him, you will still need T2 at least for an AT gun.

Personnaly I think this is over-all bad desing, and T3 should requare both T1 and T2 to be build, with proper cost ajustment ofcourse. In this case at least whole soviet T1\T2 units can be balanced in context that you will always have access to them, because they are part of your tech and not self sufficient buildings, which ideally should provide whole roster of self-sufficient units.

Regardless of whether it's bad design or not it is what we have to work with. You just can't make T1 viable unless at some point you make it easier to get stuff like AT Guns. PTRS rifles just won't ever measure up to an AT gun in how it tackles mediums and up. I mainly want to just make it easier late game for Soviet T1 to get access to AT guns late game when they really need them. There is still a pretty big gap where the Soviet T1 wouldn't have access to AT guns with a change like this and the Zis Guns wouldn't even have any vet.

As I've said again and again without giving T1 viable AT in some way your just not going to see it work. I guess if you want to power up PTRS further in some way that could be an option? Like split up the PTRS upgrades so Penals get 2 for the early game and then go to like 4 late game? I personally prefer just letting Soviets backtech for a discount once they get T4. Seems easier to implement and shouldn't cause that many balance issues.

Long time Coh player here, hardly ever post, but I have to ask:

Why does everyone want to nerf T70?

It's the only unit in the entire Soviet non-doctrinal arsenal that is good at its job.

Having said that, there are plenty of good counters to it.

Every single other non-commander unit is inferior to its Axis options.

If it was as dangerous as people seem to think then why do we not see a single "pro" player using Sov in tournaments for the last 15 months?

Long time Coh player here, hardly ever post, but I have to ask:

Why does everyone want to nerf T70?

It's the only unit in the entire Soviet non-doctrinal arsenal that is good at its job.

Having said that, there are plenty of good counters to it.

Every single other non-commander unit is inferior to its Axis options.

If it was as dangerous as people seem to think then why do we not see a single "pro" player using Sov in tournaments for the last 15 months?

Because the T-70 is an overly strong unit, and this dissuades the balans team from bringing up Soviet's other units to the level of other factions.

The t-70 should be around P2 levels, which would leave room to make major improvements to the faction.

Because the T-70 is an overly strong unit, and this dissuades the balans team from bringing up Soviet's other units to the level of other factions.

The t-70 should be around P2 levels, which would leave room to make major improvements to the faction.

+100

I don't see how anyone can be against this honestly. It's not fun to have to build the t70 every game

As long as the T-70 nerfs are accompanied with everything T3 and below being buffed, so T-70 no longer needs to carry every single unit except ZiS on its back through mid game, its fine.

+100

I don't see how anyone can be against this honestly. It's not fun to have to build the t70 every game

So...your answer is to nerf the only unit that Sov can rely on?

It's far less fun to play a faction that is basically impotent.

Also, no one has really made a case for how the T70 is so mind-meltingly good.

It's a great light tank, maybe one of the best, but why should that qualify it for being nerfed?

Again - if it's so great, then why aren't Soviets more prevalent in 1v1?

As long as the T-70 nerfs are accompanied with everything T3 and below being buffed, so T-70 no longer needs to carry every single unit except ZiS on its back through mid game, its fine.

I don't think everything needs it. A more significant maxim buff would be pretty nice though

So...your answer is to nerf the only unit that Sov can rely on?

It's far less fun to play a faction that is basically impotent.

Also, no one has really made a case for how the T70 is so mind-meltingly good.

It's a great light tank, maybe one of the best, but why should that qualify it for being nerfed?

Again - if it's so great, then why aren't Soviets more prevalent in 1v1?

You seem to have glossed over the fact that the T70 being so good is the reason the rest of the faction hasn't been buffed to become viable, as has been explained.

Again - if it's so great, then why aren't Soviets more prevalent in 1v1?

Dude you're literally making our point. The t70 can't carry the faction enough, so it's time for the Soviets to stop relying on it so heavily

You do understand what buffing other things means, right?

So...your answer is to nerf the only unit that Sov can rely on?

It's far less fun to play a faction that is basically impotent.

Also, no one has really made a case for how the T70 is so mind-meltingly good.

It's a great light tank, maybe one of the best, but why should that qualify it for being nerfed?

Again - if it's so great, then why aren't Soviets more prevalent in 1v1?

T-70 has been a huge crutch for Soviets for the longest time. It is the best light tank overall for timing and cost, easily bleeding your opponent MP heavily. It's aoe in live is so powerful that you can almost routinely rapid-fire wipe squads if they so much as bunch near for an instant (and sometimes even without that!) Even on the retreat 2-3 man squads are not safe from wipes imho.

But it's quite an investment and if you lose it, you're dead. Eg: OKW player who's been desperately fending it off for 5-10 mins will roll you with an auf j.

I suspect it doesn't show up much because the rest of Soviet game is struggling and being predictable by relying on a single vehicle to win against high level players is asking to lose it.

It might be an unpopular opinion but the T70 isn't even OP in the current patch (apart from 1v1 maybe). It's timing and the cost of Soviet tech + side grades means you have plenty of time and resources available to counter it. Teller mines, Pgrens with Schrecks, Pak40s and the P4/Ostwind arriving only a few minutes later is plenty to deal with it. OKW can just get a Puma or 2 raks and the T70's effectiveness goes to shit.

I don't really understand why so many Soviet units get nerfed in this planned patch when they were already clearly the worst faction in the early game as it is. It would have been way better to buff their early game strength and tone down the late-game a bit.