[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

V5 changes

Latest change not only make Mobilize reserves upgrade from T3 more powerful than live but also available 40 fuel earlier.

Is that intentional or an oversight?

Cool, nice of you to list all that at one place. Now you can easily calculate that the total cost of T1/T2 + medics + snare + T3 + T4 is 25 less MP than live and 5 fuel more. Assuming fuel income is about 20 % of your avarage MP income, that makes test about equal with live. That's quite far from "reduced cost", as you've said.

We all know there are timing buffs, we know there are some cost efficienccy improvements. But you've presented that claim regarding cost, ommitting the fact that paying extra for the molly might not actually be something desirable. I've simply pointed that out.

But look, it's just minor details. With a few expceptions at the very top of the ladder, basically nobody here on these forums or in the playerbase overall is influenced by a 25mp reduction here or 15 seconds timing there. Those individual nerfs or buffs are compeltely insignificant compared to resources and time lost to our mistakes and limited micro capabilities. A single squad/vehicle lsot to a stupid mistake costs you more resources and time than all changes in the past few patches combined. If anything is important in the patches, it's the major combat performance changes and general availability of certain abilities/ugprades/units. The reason why I'm bothering to reply to that particular posts is simply because I've became quite fed up with the massive amount of misleading claims you tend to bloat every thread with and htis is where I felt like venting. But it's not without purpose, it's always necessary to remind ourselves here and there that A bigger picture is what matters, and B) you can't have a discussion just by cherrypicking a few lines from patch notes or random numbers that typically don't really matter in a game where encoutners are heavily affected by physics and positioning.

So in a real game, T3 comes about 10 fuel and 50 MP earlier at best and 5 fuel and 25 MP earlier at worst (depending on when you purchase AT nades), whereas you pay 25 MP less and 5 fuel more for T4. This is a minimal buff to teching.

But what is the argument? Teching for just teching is complete bullshit. There is no point in teching for its own sake.
T3 units come earlier, which is likely a necessary buff for the SU76 and the M5 which at least might have the chance to make them more attractive), while the T70 got a rightful nerf to justify it coming a bit earlier. The only issue that can still arise is if the T70 were STILL too strong, which to be honest I cannot judge.

Otherwise you are arguing for keeping the SU76 and M5 as units that are not even niche, but absolutely useless.

So in a real game, T3 comes about 10 fuel and 50 MP earlier at best and 5 fuel and 25 MP earlier at worst (depending on when you purchase AT nades), whereas you pay 25 MP less and 5 fuel more for T4. This is a minimal buff to teching.

That are not the only change, look 1220 for the changes.

Changes include faster T1, lower cost and better healing, faster T3 with, better Mobilize reserves that is available 40 fuel earlier from t3...

Soviet tech is stronger not weaker in the preview

But what is the argument? Teching for just teching is complete bullshit. There is no point in teching for its own sake.
T3 units come earlier, which is likely a necessary buff for the SU76 and the M5 which at least might have the chance to make them more attractive), while the T70 got a rightful nerf to justify it coming a bit earlier. The only issue that can still arise is if the T70 were STILL too strong, which to be honest I cannot judge.

Otherwise you are arguing for keeping the SU76 and M5 as units that are not even niche, but absolutely useless.

The only point I have made is that Soviet tect does not need to become cheaper as some users have suggested. Check post 1183

That are not the only change, look 1220 for the changes.

Changes include faster T1, lower cost and better healing, faster T3 with, better Mobilize reserves that is available 40 fuel earlier from t3...

Soviet tech is stronger not weaker in the preview


The only point I have made is that Soviet tect does not need to become cheaper as some users have suggested. Check post 1183

this is a comparison of soviet teching costs as of V5
https://www.coh2.org/topic/107284/soviet-teching-comparison

everything youve said amounts to little since SOV STILL pays more regardless of the changes... stop denying facts vipper

Unless I am mistaken PTRS ready aim times effect Guards PTRS also and increase the units AI.

Given the PTRS has a range of 40 and 42.5 with "firing" positions out ranging infatry, PTRS fire destroys cover maybe it would better if the AT rifles used different firing modes vs soft and hard targets?

AI in AT mode could then be reduced while the range in AI could be reduced to 35 without destroying cover while the damage and ROF could be adjusted so that damage does not come in big chunks.

As an added bonuses it will be allot easier for user to know if the PTRS they are using has AI or not.

That are not the only change, look 1220 for the changes.

Changes include faster T1, lower cost and better healing, faster T3 with, better Mobilize reserves that is available 40 fuel earlier from t3...

Soviet tech is stronger not weaker in the preview


The only point I have made is that Soviet tect does not need to become cheaper as some users have suggested. Check post 1183

Yes, minimally faster T1 that will affect the first unit only and only if you do not build a second engineer.
Better healing - true that, similar to other factions
Faster T3 - minimally faster with a nerfed/retimed T70. There is no added power to this as long as the T70 nerf compensates for 5 fuel, which it does. As I said, the option is to keep the M5 and SU76 useless, which you seem to be arguing for if you want to keep the old system.
MR: How is it 40 fuel earlier? At the very best, it comes 5 fuel from the AT/molo bundle + 10 fuel from T3 earlier, or did I miss something? Also calling it "better" is misleading. Conscript builds do not benefit at all (these builds rather got nerfed), so the "better" MR does not add any benefit. Penals now get benefit of reinforcement cost and veterancy gain (if I am not mistaken since I find the notes quite confusing about this). But I assume that this is not worth it spending resources at T3 (heck, the reinforcement benefit will never pay MR back until T4). So at this point it is more like a global buff to Penals at T4, similar to Ostheer. Penals needed some kind of buffs (or technically yes you could nerf everything else, but let's face the facts and work with buffs since this is what we got and get), since they were just not viable and bleed even harder than grenadiers.

And please show how Soviet tech became cheaper. There was a bit of fuel shuffling, but even that not in large amounts. If you seriously want to count in molotovs to end up at a 5 fuel cheaper cost, than this discussion about that is rather pointless since those were simply not worth getting.

So in a real game, T3 comes about 10 fuel and 50 MP earlier at best and 5 fuel and 25 MP earlier at worst (depending on when you purchase AT nades), whereas you pay 25 MP less and 5 fuel more for T4. This is a minimal buff to teching.

But what is the argument? Teching for just teching is complete bullshit. There is no point in teching for its own sake.
T3 units come earlier, which is likely a necessary buff for the SU76 and the M5 which at least might have the chance to make them more attractive), while the T70 got a rightful nerf to justify it coming a bit earlier. The only issue that can still arise is if the T70 were STILL too strong, which to be honest I cannot judge.

Otherwise you are arguing for keeping the SU76 and M5 as units that are not even niche, but absolutely useless.

I don't disagree with anything here. The changes to teching, though minor will mean a bit sooner quad/su76. Combined with a much needed nerf to the T70. I however believe that with the nerf to the T70 and how minor the changes to tech truly are, there is room for improvement still.

The T70 may well still be OP at which point its more or less stays quo, but in the end 5-10 fuel one way or another doest really change a whole lot, it's a matter of seconds. The area soviet has always struggled is manpower (which the medics will help) and awkwardly rigid teching (although it's better than it used to be)

If you seriously want to count in molotovs to end up at a 5 fuel cheaper cost, than this discussion about that is rather pointless since those were simply not worth getting.

Just want to point out that this argument of "but you get molotovs for free\cheaper now"is absolute sinine. It's like "Get 2 vacuum cleaners for the cost of 150$ instead of 200$!" when a single vacuum cleaner costs 100$. What am I gonna need a second vacuum cleaner for you dum-dum? I only need one.

Yes, minimally faster T1 that will affect the first unit only and only if you do not build a second engineer.
Better healing - true that, similar to other factions

Soviet unit with larger number of entities benefit the most from healing and it also cheaper only for soviet.

Faster T3 - minimally faster with a nerfed/retimed T70. There is no added power to this as long as the T70 nerf compensates for 5 fuel, which it does. As I said, the option is to keep the M5 and SU76 useless, which you seem to be arguing for if you want to keep the old system.

There is since 5 arrives earlier and can heal up very fast. Soviet get faster on field and healing and still have merge

MR: How is it 40 fuel earlier? At the very best, it comes 5 fuel from the AT/molo bundle + 10 fuel from T3 earlier, or did I miss something? Also calling it "better" is misleading. Conscript builds do not benefit at all (these builds rather got nerfed), so the "better" MR does not add any benefit. Penals now get benefit of reinforcement cost and veterancy gain (if I am not mistaken since I find the notes quite confusing about this). But I assume that this is not worth it spending resources at T3 (heck, the reinforcement benefit will never pay MR back until T4). So at this point it is more like a global buff to Penals at T4, similar to Ostheer. Penals needed some kind of buffs (or technically yes you could nerf everything else, but let's face the facts and work with buffs since this is what we got and get), since they were just not viable and bleed even harder than grenadiers.

The T3 tech has been reduce by 20 and AT grenades/molotovs no longer required. The upgrade is superior since now it includes Penal and it has become available earlier in T3 from live

And please show how Soviet tech became cheaper. There was a bit of fuel shuffling, but even that not in large amounts. If you seriously want to count in molotovs to end up at a 5 fuel cheaper cost, than this discussion about that is rather pointless since those were simply not worth getting.

Healing is cheaper and molotov/AT grenade bundle now has a discount.

The tech is superior (faster T1/MR affects Penal for free/Healing is faster and cheaper/T3 earlier) and cheaper.

Tech for certain is not less strong or more expensive.

Is that a major buff? probably not but will see.

Adding more buffs making even cheaper as suggested is simply not needed.

snip*

why are you ignoring my post vipper? afraid that your unfounded claims would be disproven?

Soviet unit with larger number of entities benefit the most from healing and it also cheaper only for soviet.

They also take more casualties then others, its easier to hit 6 man squad with nuclear nade then 4 man squad with lolotov.

There is since 5 arrives earlier and can heal up very fast. Soviet get faster on field and healing and still have merge

Merge isn't forward reinforcement, even if you were trying to spin that for next 100 years, it will still not be forward reinforcement.

The T3 tech has been reduce by 20 and AT grenades/molotovs no longer required. The upgrade is superior since now it includes Penal and it has become available earlier in T3 from live

That's mental gymnastics math, also in case you haven't noticed, it means LESS reliance on T-70, which means a possibility to NOT see it in EVERY SINGLE FUCKING SOVIET GAME due to lack of any other choice.

Healing is cheaper and molotov/AT grenade bundle now has a discount.

Long overdue for both, cost were prohibitively high for what these provided.

The tech is superior (faster T1/MR affect Penal/Healing is faster/T3 earlier) and cheaper.

You missed the part, where faster T1 changes absolutely NOTHING if you plan on having any map control aka getting 2nd CE at start. The rest is using semantics to exaggerate minor changes.

Is that a major buff? probably not but will see.

I advise to stop losing shit over them then.

Adding more buffs making even cheaper as suggested is simply not needed.

That is not up to you to decide.
If it'll be proven more is needed, more will be given.

Soviet unit with larger number of entities benefit the most from healing and it also cheaper only for soviet.

You could also argue that Soviets suffered the most from squad sizes regarding healing.
However I agree that Soviets healing was mostly fine before, apart from some medics getting stuck on models. The change does lead to faster healing, in reality though you will only get your unit out a couple of seconds faster and then again ONLY IF you sit in the base to send them out the very moment they are healed.
What actually happens is that you reinforce your squad by spamming the button, then come back half a minute or so later to send all squads out that are fine. Mostly they have been idle for some time anyway, even at top level play.

There is since 5 arrives earlier and can heal up very fast. Soviet get faster on field and healing and still have merge

So M5 was fine before and you want that unit back?

The T3 tech has been reduce by 20 and AT grenades/molotovs no longer required. The upgrade is superior since now it includes Penal and it has become available earlier in T3 from live

T3 has been reduced by 10. Also nobody ever bought it at T3 before. The current changes COULD at least make it a viable early choice as clearly originally intended. Which would also increase total Soviet tech cost. Worst case is that having it so early makes it OP, but then again it finally delays the T70 by about a minute (so a weaker T70 would come even later than in live). Best case we have a decent trade off for decision making. Neutral case it is still not worth it and no one buys it, which means it does not change anything.
The Penal point I have already covered. Penals get buffed by MR (as needed, the extend needs to be evaluated ones the patch is live. Also this makes sense since ALL Soviet side tech is currently focused on Cons only), with no change to Conscripts

Healing is cheaper and molotov/AT grenade bundle now has a discount.

literally no one bought a molotov unless you are floating heavily.
Making OKW T1 200 MP more expensive and unlocking FRP directly with that would also not be a buff.

The tech is superior (faster T1/MR affect Penal/Healing is faster/T3 earlier) and cheaper.

Is that a major buff? probably not but will see.

Adding more buffs making even cheaper as suggested is simply not needed.

Again, T1 build time affects exactly the very first Penal and only that one. I even just checked and the second Penal was 50 MP (about 10 sec) away once the first once finished. This amount will increase since you get the first Penal earlier and pay upkeep, plus/minus some map dependent variation. Second/Third Penal are therefore gated by resources, not by the time you need to get T1 up. I assume the best case for Soviets here is that the first Penal comes 8 secs earlier, the second one maybe 1-2 secs, but potentially even slightly later. For double pio builds the second Penal will always come at the same time as of now.
With your logic USF got a HUGE nerf to their last tier timing when T1/2 where split into base building+upgrade, because now base building+upgrade take longer than the T1/2 previously.

...

I am not sure what you are arguing, that live tech gives better bonuses and is cheaper?

What I have said and will say it again is that Soviet tech does not need to become cheaper the preview already has buffed Soviet tech.

They also take more casualties then others, its easier to hit 6 man squad with nuclear nade then 4 man squad with lolotov.

This must be balanced by reinforcement cost, not healing.

Merge isn't forward reinforcement, even if you were trying to spin that for next 100 years, it will still not be forward reinforcement.

It was intended that way though and is Soviets best way to keep team weapons on the field. Merge functionally replaces an FRP.

I am not sure what you are arguing, that live tech gives better bonuses and is cheaper?

What I have said and will say it again is that Soviet tech does not need to become cheaper the preview already has buffed Soviet tech.

No, I never said this a even single time. I disprove your point that Soviet tech is getting cheaper.

You can simply answer my points, that's all there is.

You can repeat that it were cheaper, that's not in line with the changes of the preview though.

This must be balanced by reinforcement cost, not healing.

My point is, Vipper seems to firmly believe soviet squads return to base when 4 or 5 models are still alife.
We both know the reality.
The medic change will have anything near noticable impact almost exclusively in blob warfeare where you mass retreat constantly.

Soviets will benefit from the change barely more then any other faction and he, as usual, blows it completely out of proportions, likely because he haven't even played soviets yet and isn't aware of its actual impact.

It was intended that way though and is Soviets best way to keep team weapons on the field. Merge functionally replaces an FRP.

It keeps selected squad on field longer.
It does not keep your actual map presence topped of.
Its similar in micro scale(you want X squad to have all models back on field) and completely different in macro scale(you want all of your infantry to have max number of models on field without retreating them).
That's fundamental difference.

The medic change will have anything near noticable impact almost exclusively in blob warfeare where you mass retreat constantly.

Soviets will benefit from the change barely more then any other faction...

Yes I agree with this. I also don't think that the change will have a huge impact. Yes, Soviet squads usually retreat with more men than Axis squads, but in the end that additional guy now gets healed probably only a couple of seconds quicker.

It keeps selected squad on field longer.
It does not keep your actual map presence topped of.
Its similar in micro scale(you want X squad to have all models back on field) and completely different in macro scale(you want all of your infantry to have max number of models on field without retreating them).
That's fundamental difference.

Of course it keeps map presence up, because you can keep the most valuable units on the field. An FRP does not allow you to keep your high value unit on the field all the time, it just minimizes downtime for all units. Merge allows shifting of downtime from an important to an unimportant unit. But it is usually better to keep your vet3 ATG/stolen MG42 on the field than the vet0 Conscript that would lose the next fight anyway.
The exact mechanic is different, but the function (read the result) is the same.