[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

Can you please give me a reason why this so called 'choice' needed to be happen that you have to purchase the upgrade even once your at tier 4?

Regardless how its spun, it will delay your infantry upgrades or your tanks.

Ill add I dont like the idea of global upgrade at all, see my post in the ukf thread that I replied to you.

Well the thing is imo that giving a player choices instead of "braindead" upgrades is a good thing.

The implementation of it might need fine tuning but generally allowing the player to choose where and when he want to invest is something is a good thing.

MR now is split into two type of bonus:
One global effecting Penals reinforcement and Penal/conscripts XP gain
The 7 upgrade unlock

I mean at this point the balance team can just drop the smoke and mirrors and admit that they just want to remove the soviets from the game and it probably wouldnt surprise anyone...

Well the thing is imo that giving a player choices instead of "braindead" upgrades is a good thing.

The implementation of it might need fine tuning but generally allowing the player to choose where and when he want to invest is something is a good thing.

MR now is split into two type of bonus:
One global effecting Penals reinforcement and Penal/conscripts XP gain
The 7 upgrade unlock

Why do you never advocate for this kind of upgrades stacked on top of unchanged tech costs for axis?
If it is such a good idea, why do you never support it when applied to axis?

Ost T4 gren upgrade could easily be a global upgrade with proper cost, there is zero reason why it should be free anymore with how powerful T4 is.

Well the thing is imo that giving a player choices instead of "braindead" upgrades is a good thing.

The implementation of it might need fine tuning but generally allowing the player to choose where and when he want to invest is something is a good thing.

Considering how impactful and important the upgrade is not really a choice. You have a issue that it comes too early, i think everyone will be getting it before tier 4. Also your going into dangerous territory about brain-dead upgrades especially about one that no one complained about.

I think there are good reasons for making Conscript late game slightly less efficient. I have also proposed a change to the timing/placement of Mobilized Reserves, although it was a bit different than this one.



My arguments were all pointing towards Conscript builds. Since people usually use either Cons or Penals (rarely both and I have not seen a backtech from Con/T2 into T1), it is not a buff to Conscript builds if Penals are affected as well.
I am not quite sure where the tech is placed now. HQ? Or still T3? And although it might be available earlier, upgraded Conscripts are in my eyes not strong enough to hold the line by themselves. So at least fuel/MP wise, you now pay more than previously.

It is still in T3.

Conscripts got viability got a major buff with increased healing speed and lower cost.

Penal benefit from MR substantially by faster XP gain and cheaper reinforcement. The upgrade probably pay for itself especially since Penal can not deal with armor.

The global upgrade instead of squad-based is a fair point. I think that this is a very bad idea by the balance team though. Soviets had a good way to dump 150-200 munis into their mainline infantry. Now this is excess munis that will be spent elsewhere. Additionally, PPsHs are literally exclusive with the reserves upgrade and will be marginalized even further. Plus you cannot pickup weapons any more (I know the upgrade is better, still this option is taken away for not much reason). I hope the global upgrade will be reverted.

PPsh comes with hit the ground that can be used from 7 men conscripts.

Both ppsh/SVT sqauds benefit from faster XP gain with MR.

Considering how impactful and important the upgrade is its not really a choice. You have a issue that it comes too early, i think everyone will be getting it before tier 4. Also your going into dangerous territory about brain-dead upgrades especially about one that no one complained about.

I suspect that people will try to rush the upgrade going conscripts then T1 T3 with 1 PTRS Penal because it too powerful. But it still remains a choice when one will unlock it.

People never unlocked it in T3 so it was not match of choice in live either.

My comments was general about global upgrades and had little to do with this upgrade particularly.

I suspect that people will try to rush the upgrade going conscripts then T1 T3 with 1 PTRS Penal because it too powerful. But it still remains a choice when one will unlock it.

People never unlocked it in T3 so it was not match of choice in live either.

My comments was general about global upgrades and had little to do with this upgrade particularly.

Or because M3 got nerfed even further because reasons, T2 is in same state as ever, T70 is noticably weaker and less impactful while still somewhat potent and you won't be able to survive T3 without it anymore.

I mean at this point the balance team can just drop the smoke and mirrors and admit that they just want to remove the soviets from the game and it probably wouldnt surprise anyone...

Basically this. Vet 3 Cons were the only thing that performed really well in the late game for the faction and carried it on its back, making up for their poor performence in the first 15 minutes, but no, SOV can't have a unit that can actually feel good to use. Meanwhile other factions can keep their exceptionally good units like MG42, P4, Rifles or Tommies because it's "their identity". I guess I get it, SOV's identity is to suck, so it's just a consistency change, which is a popular phrase to throw around here. In 1v1 SOV used to make up for their poor early/mid game and lack of powerful armour with cost efficient infantry late game. With heavy nerf to both cost and performance of Vet 3 cons, what is left?

Just to put things into perspective, this is a list of non-commander units that were significantly nerfed in performance so far for SOV, the ever so dominant faction during the past year.

• Cons (significant nerf)
  
• Sniper
  
• Scout Car (the armour nerf does more harm than health increase does good against small arms)
  
• ZIS (significant nerf)
  
• M5 (significant nerf)
  
• T-70 (significant nerf)
  
• T-34 (only minor nerf in 1v1)
  
• SU-85
  
• Katyusha
  
  For fairness' sake, this is a list of units that were buffed:
  
  
• Engineers (minimal impact)
  
• Medics (significant buff)
  
• SU-76 (mobility buff)
  
• Maxim
  
  I won't lsit penals in either group, since their economy was changed, firepower nerfed and durability increased, so it'S hard to tell.
  
  And this is a list of all non commander core units that SOV happen to use these days:
  
  
• Engineers
  
• Medics
  
• Cons
  
• ZIS
  
• T-70
  
• T-34
  
• SU-85
  
• Katyusha
  
  Of the buffed units, only Medics will make major impact, as Engineers don't really fight in the late game where they manage to hit the vet, T-70 is still mandatory, which eliminates SU-76 as an option, Maxim still suck and penals still can't replace Cons in their role. So yeah, basically the entire roster was just nerfed like that, despite the faction struggling in tournaments, on 1v1 ladder and I won't even mention teamgames.
  
  
  

Meanwhile other factions can keep their exceptionally good units like MG42, P4, Rifles or Tommies because it's "their identity".

And you want cons to perform as an exceptionally good unit? I mean alright, does grenadiers perfom like an exceptionally good unit, when they face rifles\tommies? Does volks perfom like an exceptionally good unit when they face rifles\tommies?

Let me clerify, that Ost relies on combination of grens + PGs or MG42 in terms of inf play, always. OKW in terms of inf play always relies on volks+obersts (jaegers\falls). Grens nor Volks aren't performing good vs WFA factions.

Only Tommies\Rifles relies on nothing in terms of inf play and can be played by themself with all the upgrades\weapons.

It sometimes feel, like some soviet mains want their cons to perfom like tommies\rifles at some point of the game, while completly ignoring the fact that soviets have their elite inf in almost every single commander, for that excact reason.

No matter what you pick, for a few exceptions, you would always have either guards or shocktroops to support your cons. And its just like with both Ost and OKW where you need to elite\semi-elite inf to support your mainline with.

Like for real, soviets are not the strongest faction, but at the same time if you dont like them and you want yolo mainline, play UKF\USF stop pushing this agenda of "if its an allied mainline it has to be godlike at somepoint".

Or if you want to state that every single soviet unit is useless shit, therefore cons have to be super good and durable, then say so.



And on a side note. Considering MR doesnt requare both molys and AT nades, you can now get it even faster then before, because most of the time you will be skipping molotovs anyway.

Moly cost - 85mp 10 fuel
AT nade - 125 mp 10 fuel
Reserves - 100 mp 20 fuel.

In live reserves cost you 310mp 40 fuel.
In patch, for comparison:
With AT nades, no moly - 15mp 10 fuel, considering savings from molly.
With Moly, no AT nades - 25mp saved 10 fuel, considering savings from AT.
Without AT\moly - 110mp saved and 0 fuel, considering savings from both moly and AT nades.

And also cons litteraly just lost 10% acc on vet3, while now they will get +20% exp just by unlocking MR, meaning that Svt\PPsH or cons with picked up weapons will vet up faster and you are no longer locked into upgrading all cons with 7men in order to get benefits from MR.

I have a few suggestions about the t34 that I haven't seen mentioned yet. These are mostly to entertain the thought so please don't crucify me on it. =)

So there are two suggestions I have that might help solve the issues of the t34. It being that it's a subpar medium in t4 that arrives somewhat too late and loses relevance in the late game apart from ram+call-in combo.

first suggestion:

-split up t4, make the building cheaper but lock su85/kat/doctrinal behind a upgrade, so the t34 can get a small window to be on the field before the superior p4 (if both opponents have had equal fuel income). This would place it somewhere between t3 and t4. Similar to how okw truck's has been paced. Pricing of the t34/76 might need adjusting to prevent it being too spammable though.

- With the nerfing of the ram, maybe adding a timed and munition cost AP rounds ability that increases medium/near pen at vet 2 or 3 can be considered? can even have it force reload so it's not a clutch ability. Then it at least can somewhat compete in lategame with vet, staying relevant without being overbearing.

Second suggestion:
this is a more radical suggestion, how about exchanging the t34/76 for the t34/85 as the main t4 tank? I think this could help find a better place for the 76 to arrive as a call-in or doctrine tank, similar to the stug G.

It could give soviets a good late game without being as doctrine dependent and could remove overlap. Of course the downside to this is soviet would need alot of rebalancing when it comes to the t34/85 in relation to new doctrinal tank combinations.

It might also help with adjusting the su85 to be less overbearing against mediums.

This is a huge undertaking but I think it might be a viable way to restructure Soviets tank core to have more bite without relying entirely on tank doctrines.

T-34/76 arriving too late is a pretty common complaint with Soviets, so couldn't the T4 fuel cost be decreased slightly now that it doesn't give Mobilize Reserves for free?

...

After considering that this would also bring doctrinal tanks to the field earlier, it sounds like a terrible idea.

After considering that this would also bring doctrinal tanks to the field earlier, it sounds like a terrible idea.

They can just have CP requrement, as some of them should have had in a first place.

T-34/76 arriving too late is a pretty common complaint with Soviets, so couldn't the T4 fuel cost be decreased slightly now that it doesn't give Mobilize Reserves for free?

...

After considering that this would also bring doctrinal tanks to the field earlier, it sounds like a terrible idea.

I suggested this too.
Doctrinal tanks could be locked behind Mobilized reserves though.

I think that now that the broken capabilities of certain Soviet units have been brought to line (as of the current patch preview version), some of their core units can be tweaked positively.