[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

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Feel free to argue your points with the themachine after watching his replays or feel free to provide you own replays.
He has claimed

.. Penals feel great but I am worried their anti-infantry accuracy on the PTRS is too high. They seem very strong and blobbable against other mainline infantry squads despite having nice damage against tanks now. Though, while they are scary against Mediums, ....

Here's what new PTRS dps should look like roughly:



PTRS Penals didn't get better performance against infantry outside a negligible amount after 35 range.

3x new PTRS aren't even equal to 1x SVT, let alone if you add the dps of 2x old PTRS to the 1x SVT.

Here's what new PTRS dps should look like roughly:



PTRS Penals didn't get better performance against infantry outside a negligible amount after 35 range.

3x new PTRS aren't even equal to 1x SVT, let alone if you add the dps of 2x old PTRS to the 1x SVT.

PTRS Penal squads might not had the AI increased but they got their AT increased without any loss in AI and that is just one in series of buffs.

Difference is not DPS at vet 0 is a combination the DPS and high accuracy bonuses the unit gets and other bonuses available to the faction.

Once vetted the new Penal PTRS should have similar accuracy with one guards use at max range.

And wly should a unit that can fight vs mediums tanks retain good AI DPS in the first place?

The idea that Penal should cover all the needs of the Soviet faction in AI, AT, Anti-building and Anti-garrison with a dirty cheap tech cost is simply flawed to begin with.


As for the AT capability here is a fast test I did, of PTRS Penal vs PzIV and AT PF vs T-34 (both infatry where set to no damage) where the two tanks died almost simultaneously after driving toward the AT infatry:

https://www.coh2.org/file/19308/at.jpg

(anyone who want to be more thorough can repeat on his own multiple times and provide and the results )

Vipper, that jpg doesn't show anything useful. You'll need to write down your process and outcome, but to be honest a lot of people won't really be interested.

Vipper, that jpg doesn't show anything useful. You'll need to write down your process and outcome, but to be honest a lot of people won't really be interested.

Since you ask I will explain.
I simply placed a PTRS Penal and AT PF in sandbags set them invincible a and drove a PzIV and T-34/76 to them.

If one want in game examples one can watch the games themachince has linked and everyone can play the preview mode and get his own perceptive.

Since you ask I will explain.
I simply placed a PTRS Penal and AT PF in sandbags set them invincible a and drove a PzIV and T-34/76 to them.

If one want in game examples one can watch the games themachince has linked and everyone can play the preview mode and get his own perceptive.

Thank you for your perceptive.

For those of us who've tried to use Penals in the live version, we aren't worried that a few small buffs will make them OP, even if the changes are all buffs instead of nerfs. Penals in the live version are expensive to buy, leading to slow starts, and expensive to reinforce, causing a players to be starved for manpower. The PTRS's are currently just good for sound effects versus late game armor, but don't really damage anything, while leading to a lot of bleed while trying.

Thank you for your perceptive.

You are welcomed, but it not "my" perspective.

For those of us who've tried to use Penals in the live version, we aren't worried that a few small buffs will make them OP, even if the changes are all buffs instead of nerfs. Penals in the live version are expensive to buy, leading to slow starts, and expensive to reinforce, causing a players to be starved for manpower. The PTRS's are currently just good for sound effects versus late game armor, but don't really damage anything, while leading to a lot of bleed while trying.

One of those who tried the penal in the Patch had this to say and also provided replay:

initially, penals PTRS was suppose to be this last ditch option, if you had no other AT or lost your AT and you needed AT badly, that's where you can give penals PTRS as a last option and yet this stupid unit has received constant buffs. I can see it needing buffs from maybe a 1v1 prospective only but in team games penals bobs are some of the most common and effective blobs in 3v3's and 4v4's and this is just encouraging it.

Even though they have weaker AI with PTRS, its still usable hence the blobbing. They should be like pfusies AI when they upgrade with shreks i.e have useless ai when upgraded with prts.

Thank you for your perceptive.

For those of us who've tried to use Penals in the live version, we aren't worried that a few small buffs will make them OP, even if the changes are all buffs instead of nerfs. Penals in the live version are expensive to buy, leading to slow starts, and expensive to reinforce, causing a players to be starved for manpower. The PTRS's are currently just good for sound effects versus late game armor, but don't really damage anything, while leading to a lot of bleed while trying.

as they should be. no way in hell are PTRS supposed to counter heavy tanks in anyway. If you use PTRS vs heavy tanks YOU SHOULD BE GETTING HEAVY BLEED.

as they should be. no way in hell are PTRS supposed to counter heavy tanks in anyway. If you use PTRS vs heavy tanks YOU SHOULD BE GETTING HEAVY BLEED.

"Last ditch" "upgrades" that cause an unit to be worthless dead weight in the lategame is not exactly stellar game design. If Penals really won't be changed to be a mainline alternative, and remain as they are, the PTRS upgrade needs to do one of two (Three) things:

A: Provide solid AT.

B: Provide acceptable AT and maintain a level of AI performance.

(C: Be replaced with an AI upgrade and Guards be made stock)

If they're useless against both Infantry and medium+ tanks then that is bad unit design. Upgraded Fusiliers/Pgrens/ZookREs/PIATREs are still able to threaten heavier vehicles, there's not really any reason Penals should be rubbish just because they thematically have AT rifles rather than HEAT munitions.

I still maintain that Penals should become a Mainline alternative and be replaced with Guards (of some type) as SOV handheld AT. Guards have utility to complement their lacklustre AT performance, Penals by comparison are really not fantastically designed units. I'm going to actually flesh out this idea.

Since you ask I will explain.
I simply placed a PTRS Penal and AT PF in sandbags set them invincible a and drove a PzIV and T-34/76 to them.

If one want in game examples one can watch the games themachince has linked and everyone can play the preview mode and get his own perceptive.

So similar priced units from two different factions with similarly priced AT upgrades killed similar medium battle tanks at a similar rate. Are you arguing that Penals are being over buffed because they perform similarly to PF?

I think it's fair to nerf the AI of PTRS Penals a little in exchange for them actually working as an AT squad now. In most game scenarios PTRS Penals are going to take the place of AT Guns as non-TD AT since most players aren't going to side tech to T2 unless this patch drastically shifts the meta- so PTRS Penals need to actually work as AT Units if they/T1 are ever going to actually be used. I don't see why they shouldn't function similarly to their closest Axis counterparts of shreked up PGs or Fusies. In that vein I think we can consider removing the AT satchel or giving Penals a weaker "Target Tread" type ability to replace it. After all PGs and Fusies don't have snares and Axis also have to build mainline infantry for snares. Having that "no snare" weakness is important to prevent Penal only cheese or over performing synergy with call-in support weapon commanders. I also think it would be nice if PTRS Penals and Tank Hunter Conscripts were somewhat differentiated

So similar priced units from two different factions with similarly priced AT upgrades killed similar medium battle tanks at a similar rate. Are you arguing that Penals are being over buffed because they perform similarly to PF?

1) PTRS Penal a stock are 300 manpower infatry with 70 munition upgrade.
2) AT PF is a doctrinal 270 manpower infatry with 100 munition upgrade.
3) T-34/76 is tank with 300/90 cost
4) PzIV is tank with 350/100 cost

If those two infantries where equally good at killing those tanks (and I am not saying that they are) one would have to come the conclusion that Penal are most cost efficient since for lower price (taking account the MU cost) they can counter a more expensive tanks.

But the main differences, lies elsewhere:
Penal start with full AI and can downgrade their AI if they need to use AT
PF start weak and have invest in tech and mu to get good AI or invest in tech and MU to get AT and have extremely low AI

I think it's fair to nerf the AI of PTRS Penals a little in exchange for them actually working as an AT squad now. In most game scenarios PTRS Penals are going to take the place of AT Guns as non-TD AT since most players aren't going to side tech to T2 unless this patch drastically shifts the meta- so PTRS Penals need to actually work as AT Units if they/T1 are ever going to actually be used. I don't see why they shouldn't function similarly to their closest Axis counterparts of shreked up PGs or Fusies. In that vein I think we can consider removing the AT satchel or giving Penals a weaker "Target Tread" type ability to replace it. After all PGs and Fusies don't have snares and Axis is in same boat of having to build mainline infantry for snares... I also think it would be nice if PTRS Penals and Tank Hunter Conscripts were somewhat differentiated

Then we agree. Then the AI buff PTRS gets makes little sense.

But the real questions is why should Penal be able to do all that in the first place?

If T1 need an AT units make one available (either a new AT squad or an ATG).

If Penals are meant to do everything than designed as PF where they have to choose if they are going to be AI or AT instead of a unit that start with full AI and can then become AT if needed.

"Last ditch" "upgrades" that cause an unit to be worthless dead weight in the lategame is not exactly stellar game design. If Penals really won't be changed to be a mainline alternative, and remain as they are, the PTRS upgrade needs to do one of two (Three) things:

A: Provide solid AT.

B: Provide acceptable AT and maintain a level of AI performance.

(C: Be replaced with an AI upgrade and Guards be made stock)

If they're useless against both Infantry and medium+ tanks then that is bad unit design. Upgraded Fusiliers/Pgrens/ZookREs/PIATREs are still able to threaten heavier vehicles, there's not really any reason Penals should be rubbish just because they thematically have AT rifles rather than HEAT munitions.

I still maintain that Penals should become a Mainline alternative and be replaced with Guards (of some type) as SOV handheld AT. Guards have utility to complement their lacklustre AT performance, Penals by comparison are really not fantastically designed units. I'm going to actually flesh out this idea.

none of which solves the issue they get constantly blobbed to hell in team games and buffing them will just encourage it. (pfussies are also being blobbed to death to for this very same reason but they are less seen then penals since ther doc locked). i wouldn't mind if all AT squads get reliable AT buffs, as long as they all get locked at 4 man squads to discourage blobbing

as they should be. no way in hell are PTRS supposed to counter heavy tanks in anyway. If you use PTRS vs heavy tanks YOU SHOULD BE GETTING HEAVY BLEED.

in a game with no ability to remove upgrades or squads without feeding vet they should absolutely scale. this idea that a unit should become useless but you are still stuck with it is bad. PTRS should scale . penals need a redesign for this to not be a no brainer but they SHOULD scale.

Snip

Directly comparing them to PF is kind of a straw man argument when Panzergrens are more or less the same style of unit as Penals that start with full AI and can downgrade their AI if they need to use AT. The only difference is that both Fusies and PGs are both in the HQ building and can organically be part of a build order whereas Penals are essentially side tech, which needs to be considered. Quibbling over slight differences in cost efficiencies or whether or not Fusies are better/worse than Penals because of a munitions investment for G43 package doesn't invalidate the concept of the PTRS package when it's all basically the same design with small variations in costs, timings, and tech paths.

Directly comparing them to PF is kind of a straw man argument

I did not compare them and I did not use the comparison is an argument, I made a simple test and provided the results.

when Panzergrens are more or less the same style of unit as Penals that start with full AI and can downgrade their AI if they need to use AT.

Not really:
1) Panzer grenadier come later after one has produced several unit and in most cases are not the core of army
2) Panzer grenadier cost 340 manpower which is more than the 300 of Penal
3) Panzer grenadier upgrade cost 100 mu
4) PAnzer grenadier lose almost half their AI when upgraded Penal lose alsmot 2/3
5) Panzer grenadier do not get snare

Even so you can repeat the same test I did using Panzer grenadier I doubt you get different results since the shreck are similar. The comparison will only make AT Penal appear more cost efficient since PGs are more expensive the PF.

If PG where available before minute 1 I would post similar things with what I post about Penals.

The only difference is that both Fusies and PGs are both in the HQ building and can organically be part of a build order whereas Penals are essentially side tech, which needs to be considered.

Nope, Penal are not a side tech.

T1 is normal tech that unlock t3 and Penals come with satchel, PTRS, AT satchels with no additional side tech.

Quibbling over slight differences in cost efficiencies or whether or not Fusies are better/worse than Penals because of a munitions investment for G43 package doesn't invalidate the concept of the PTRS package when it's all basically the same design with small variations in costs, timings, and tech paths.

Again not really.

The design of PF is that of an alternative mainline infatry to supplement VGs, with two clear paths, AI or AT.

Penal have been bandaided so many times that they simply do not have any design.

initially, penals PTRS was suppose to be this last ditch option, if you had no other AT or lost your AT and you needed AT badly, that's where you can give penals PTRS as a last option and yet this stupid unit has received constant buffs. I can see it needing buffs from maybe a 1v1 prospective only but in team games penals bobs are some of the most common and effective blobs in 3v3's and 4v4's and this is just encouraging it.

Even though they have weaker AI with PTRS, its still usable hence the blobbing. They should be like pfusies AI when they upgrade with shreks i.e have useless ai when upgraded with prts.

Hmm, "effective" PTRS Penal Battalion blobs? Versus light vehicles, absolutely. Versus other infantry, absolutely not. Any time I've ever made 3 PTRS Penal Battalions, I haven't taken a single great infantry-versus-infantry fight with them. They are lousy versus other infantry once fitted with the PTRS rifles, so a Soviet player had better have a plan for countering Axis infantry. PTRS Penals will never cut it against any half-decent Axis player's infantry.

The Penal PTRS conundrum is difficult. I played some more games (against a better opponent) and they don't seem as strong as I initially thought. Double MG42 really shuts Penals down, especially with PTRS because you can't fire on the move. If there is a new OP strategy it will be because of DSHK/Heavy Mortar/Sniper protected behind a PTRS Penal wall, not the Penals themselves. Perhaps Conscripts and Tier 2 will still remain a better and safer route than Tier 1 in high level play but in team games I suspect they'll be popular for their blobability. The problem with relying on DSHK is they still death loop compared to MG42 and they are easy to get stolen, leading to massive swings. All in all though, I love the new changes.