[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 23:19 PMthedarkarmadillo

....
people avoid grnes because they can. in live you can make up the difference with ostroppen and fill in the punch with fast pgrens. there is no need for grens. you dont need their snare and you dont need their DPS. the mg42 zones well enough to make up for ostroppen lack of teeth and there is no place for grens in this meta.

im not smoke and mirroring anything, grens cost 240 all game and that all you will ever pay for them. the 80mp doesnt apply directly to them, one does not include the cost of hammer or anvil when balancing comet or churchill because theres more to the upgrades than JUST that single unit, as with ost t1.

i must say its Ludacris that you are attaching the tier cost to grens as if its anything more than a token to get access to 3 units and deny the con upgrades as cost inflating despite them doing nothing but unlock things for cons and cons alone.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 06:29 AMVipper

Not really. They avoided even WC2019 when it harder to avoid them.

If you want to add tech cost one can not ignore the simple fact first conscripts comes at 240 manpower with no delay and first grenadier comes 240+80/10 and later while also locking pioneer in building T1.

Fact remain Ostheer have a slow start, if soviet have slower mid that is simply fine else they would simply snowball ostheer. There was a time when all conscript builds where viable and it turned out to be really ugly.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 03:40 AMthedarkarmadillo

but costs do matter. thats the best metric we have for balance. if x build is competitive to a more expensive build and its not made up of hard counters then either one side is over performing to that cost or the other is underperforming. resources are time given value, and that value has to match up more or less.

long and short, in the case of cons if you build one con, the sidegrades may not be worth that investment, if you build none it certainly is not. as such the extra investment of the sidegrades IS tied to the cost of the unit.
this isnt inflating the cost of my favorite unit to make it look one way or another, this is simple math. if you only build a single con, and get molitovs, that single con has more invested in it than if there was 4 or 10. since it IS a global it gets more cost efficient the more units that use it, but it IS extra investment none the less. much like a gren with a 60mu lmg should perform better than a gren alone, or one with a 45mu upgrade for that matter. more investment should mean better performance. thats the basis of balance.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 06:29 AMVipper

Not really. They avoided even WC2019 when it harder to avoid them.

If you want to add tech cost one can not ignore the simple fact first conscripts comes at 240 manpower with no delay and first grenadier comes 240+80/10 and later while also locking pioneer in building T1.

Fact remain Ostheer have a slow start, if soviet have slower mid that is simply fine else they would simply snowball ostheer. There was a time when all conscript builds where viable and it turned out to be really ugly.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 21:14 PMelchino7

It does not compute.

Conscript: 135 over 36 games from 50 total. 3.75 Conscript avg per game and used on 72% of the games.

Grenadiers: 101 over 27 games from 40 total. 3.74 Grens avg per game and used on 67.5% of the games.

OH opening is slow only when you don't build the MG42 as first unit. There's a reason they start with more mp than usual.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:04 PMVipper

As I pointed it has to do with opening not the total units produced.

Only grenadier openings 0, HMG + 3 grenadier 16 openings....

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:04 PMVipper

As I pointed it has to do with opening not the total units produced.

Only grenadier openings 0, HMG + 3 grenadier 16 openings....

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:32 PMelchino7

And why would you try to open with anything else than MG42, doctrinal infantry or pio?

I think you only go gren first if you plan getting a sniper.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:40 PMVipper

And that is what I have pointed out. "Cheaper mainline infatry" arguments means nothing.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:40 PMVipper

And that is what I have pointed out. "Cheaper mainline infatry" arguments means nothing.

Jump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:45 PMelchino7

You didn't and you made an even worst point.

Jump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 07:04 AMVipper

In your opinion are grenadier the cheapest infatry or not?

If they are I am all ear for the arguments, if they are not we agree.

Jump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 07:10 AMClarity

Honestly I think giving Grens sandbags would make them feel a lot better, obviously they should have the slower build time like the sandbags of other factions but it would make LMG Grens feel much better defensively in the engagements where they excel.

Jump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 07:10 AMClarity

Honestly I think giving Grens sandbags would make them feel a lot better, obviously they should have the slower build time like the sandbags of other factions but it would make LMG Grens feel much better defensively in the engagements where they excel.

Jump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 14:24 PMKyle

I agree with you: They should replace Grenadier ability to build bunker with making sandbags (but also way slower building compare to Pio to stop spamming)

Grenadier are weak early game and they need sandbag, period.

Jump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 14:33 PMVipper

Ostruppen from t1 should have sandbag instead of bunkers.

Jump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 14:33 PMVipper

Ostruppen from t1 should have sandbag instead of bunkers.

Jump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 18:32 PMEtherealDragon

The only ostruppen that don't get sandbags are the the mobile defense ones. Unless you are saying that Ostruppen should get sandbags from the get-go instead of CP1 or CP2, which I'm not sure is a good idea since they are trying to tone down sandbag spam. Might work if they are balanced like the conscript sandbags in 5.0 where they are built slower than stock Pioneer sandbags but end up at same speed as Pioneers at Vet 1 or something like that.