[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 17:55 PMVipper

Both grenadier and conscripts cost 240 manpower to buy.

SVT conscripts cost 240/60mu at CP 1 and VSL grenadier cots 270/60mu at CP 2.

VSL grenadier are simply not cheaper to buy.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:28 PMMr Carmine

You do know you need to buy the 7th man right?

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 18:40 PMHannibal

The bundle nade is relatively easy to time and does excellent damage. The satchel can work but is way harder to pull of plus you need to be far behind the enemy already due to the long fuse. If you flank from the side and the enemy retreats, you have no chance to throw a satchel in time. Another reason why I value the bundle so much is because it ignores light cover which is plenty in the later stages of the game, whereas you moving DPS gets further diminished.

Penals do have decent damage on the move on the long range, but the PGren advantage between 10-20 is definitely not negligable either. Conscripts though are pretty horrible at wiping, IS are also subpar even after the reworks. It gets a little better when they get their Brens, but then they may not walk, which makes wipes slightly more map dependent if your opponent manages to run around a corner or not.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:28 PMMr Carmine

You do know you need to buy the 7th man right?

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:30 PMThamor

If you mean reinforce, you do know that you need to buy the 5th man for grens? Which don't cost 20mp, but 30mp.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:35 PMMr Carmine

Yes thats why vipper said 270mp and not 240mp. Do grens have tech wich only and only benits them? In live for cons thats 250 mp and some fuel. No this easely makes cons a more expensive squad. And 10 to 40 mp fo total squad ugrades is easely covered and over takes grens in costs.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:47 PMVipper

If grenadier are the "cheapest" mainline infatry than they are simply list cost efficient infatry because 3-4 conscripts, 3-4 riflemen, 3-4 tommies are all viable strategies while 4 grenadier is not.

Ostheer are probably one of the factions with slowest starts (unless they go doctrinal) so repeating the "cheapest argument" means very little because it does not really translate to an advantage.

So I suggest we stop with this myth.

Each unit has a cost to buy and the price of grenadier is 240 which is the same as conscripts.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:47 PMVipper

If grenadier are the "cheapest" mainline infatry than they are simply list cost efficient infatry because 3-4 conscripts, 3-4 riflemen, 3-4 tommies are all viable strategies while 4 grenadier is not.

Ostheer are probably one of the factions with slowest starts (unless they go doctrinal) so repeating the "cheapest argument" means very little because it does not really translate to an advantage.

So I suggest we stop with this myth.

Each unit has a cost to buy and the price of grenadier is 240 which is the same as conscripts.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 20:17 PMthedarkarmadillo

ostheer, or rather grens specifically are not supposed to operate independently like other mainlines, thats why it is absolutely impossible to have grens and not an mg42. the issue lies in grens not synergizing well with the mg42. since suppression reduces damage grens kinda dont bite in the scenario they are supposed to operate in.

id like to see grens with a bonus against suppressed units through ability, vet, maybe the battlephase system or even natively, hell, even as a cover bonus or a bonus in friendly territory likely removed when VSL is purchased to keep the paths unique.

grens are well designed, especially for their faction, but since the game has sped up they certainly lost out much like cons did in the past.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 20:26 PMVipper

And that why Ostheer has been hit so hard when their "support weapon advantage" has become so small.

Point remain that "grenadier is cheapest mainline myth" in not true and even it was true it would mean very little very little because grenadier are so cost inefficient on their own. Thus it would allot better if people stop repeating in every thread.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 19:53 PMKatitof

True.
Just as true is that side upgrades that affect cons exclusively inflate cost of cons, while nothing inflates cost of grens, because there is nothing you can pay fuel for that affects them exclusively.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 20:26 PMVipper

And that why Ostheer has been hit so hard when their "support weapon advantage" has become so small.

the support weapon advantage remains, it is however concentrated in the mg42. a change from counter barrage to a better rof or something with a wider AOE would be welcome to help it be a better damage dealer

Point remain that "grenadier is cheapest mainline myth" in not true and even it was true it would mean very little very little because grenadier are so cost inefficient on their own. Thus it would allot better if people stop repeating in every thread.

its not a myth that they are the cheapest, they are plain and simple. whats more, while they are poor on their own they are incredible with support, which is how they are supposed to be used. a maxim a con squad cost the same as a gren and an mg42 and despite the 4 extra models on the soviet side (and of course the extra 80mp in tech, but we will leave that out for the sake of numbers) is heavily in favor of ost for unit performance in the combo, including the ability to fend off light vehicles being native on grens and paid for cons. it gets even more in favor for ost when vet is added with the mg42 being able to melt light vehicles and infantry and ost being able to heal themselves and the mg. grens are not meant to be independent so there is little point in inspecting them as such.

even if you do chose to compare them individually no other mainline starts with a snare which thanks to some existing infrastructure we can actually quantify the value of. grens have additional value built in equal to greater than the tech to unlock them. for what they are grens ARE cost efficient (And the cheapest mainline going) the problem is that what they are is a little off of what they need to be.

if the mg42 is to be the staple of ostheer, grens need to be abit better at working in tandem with it.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 20:45 PMHannibal

I know you like to repeat this point over and over again, so I'll do it as well:
Allied factions are designed for having to buy side techs and thereby delay their main tech. This is fully intended for viable builds. Just adding the cost to the infantry unit itself is exactly doing the same thing you are mocking others for: Looking at things in a total vacuum. Like comparing pure Gren builds to pure Con builds. It's completely blind to faction design and therefore by far not as clear cut "true" as you present it.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 20:45 PMHannibal

I know you like to repeat this point over and over again, so I'll do it as well:
Allied factions are designed for having to buy side techs and thereby delay their main tech. This is fully intended for viable builds. Just adding the cost to the infantry unit itself is exactly doing the same thing you are mocking others for: Looking at things in a total vacuum. Like comparing pure Gren builds to pure Con builds. It's completely blind to faction design and therefore by far not as clear cut "true" as you present it.

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 21:00 PMVipper

And that simply make grenadier the "least cost efficient infantry", so from now we should repeat in every thread that grenadier is "least cost efficient infantry".

Jump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 20:52 PMthedarkarmadillo

for ukf and usf this is true, as the power the side grades bring is great and the units it touches is wide.
con upgrades on the other hand.... they are more akin to the likes of the AEC sidegrade i guess. you can claim the price of the AEC proper as whatever you would like it to be but in reality, since that side tech does nothing but unlock the AEC, it effectively inflates the cost of the AEC. similar to con upgrades, only its gating performance and nothing else.