[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

imo like ram, ostt is given too much attention. the issue imo is 1v1 top level plays. even then, the issue surfaced on recent wc games.

meaning perhaps the map and adaptation against ostt is not there.

in 2v2, this nerf will kill ostt doctrine again.

imo like ram, ostt is given too much attention. the issue imo is 1v1 top level plays. even then, the issue surfaced on recent wc games.

meaning perhaps the map and adaptation against ostt is not there.

in 2v2, this nerf will kill ostt doctrine again.

yep, it seems patch for Osttruppen is made by people don't play Osttruppen at all.

1. Osttruppen arn't OP, they only remove the main-handy-cap Ostheer has in early-game -> map presence and better hit-and-cover option. (move to HKF, fall back to cover behind and repeat the game while getting support your enemy doesn't get) Grens can't play that game as effective.

-> you want to make Grens meta? Make Osttruppen CP1-2 or battlephase-2

2. Osttruppen were never be used in combo with Grens, because it needs to much micro to deal with so much different mechanics.

-> you want to make them a better combo-unit? ...that is the difficult one, because best would be to overwork Ostheer... ^^

Your argument actually work the other way around.
If one does not build a single conscript one can save the AT grenade/molotovs.
If one does not building a single grenadier will still have payed the cost for faust/riflegrenade/lmg that is included in Ostheer tech cost.

The only way to actually be accurate in comparing the tech cost across the different systems is to calculate the total cost used across the whole game and assigning to the units used during the game.

But all of that is not very relevant. The simply fact remain that Ostheer do not actually have an early advantage because of tech.

4 conscripts builds work just fine but 4 grenadier builds do not work.

The argument that grenadier are cheapest mainline infatry (they are not) and ostheer have an advantage because of that is simply mute.

Its strange to me that osts stuff included with tech somehow inflates their tech costs and you are "paying extra, just don't have a choice not to" when every single other instance of stuff being added to to be included with tech didn't increase tech costs. 7 man in t4 costs the exact same as pre 7 man. When volks got stgs, flame nades and snares their tech costs were not adjusted to accommodate this "totally paid for and not free" additional content....

Its strange to me that osts stuff included with tech somehow inflates their tech costs and you are "paying extra, just don't have a choice not to" when every single other instance of stuff being added to to be included with tech didn't increase tech costs. 7 man in t4 costs the exact same as pre 7 man. When volks got stgs, flame nades and snares their tech costs were not adjusted to accommodate this "totally paid for and not free" additional content....

Tbh here, I never understood all this free and paid stuff shenanigans. We cant lets say compare ost free unlocks to UKF\USF free stuff. Aswell as we cant compare soviet free stuff to OKW free stuff.

All that matters at the end of the day - how fast factions can reach their first tank. Right now, if we consider realistic play, with all usuall side grades, free grades, weapon upgrades and so on. All the faction more or less have fair timing in terms of how fast they can have\get their armor and armor counters.

I think this is what matters the most.

Tbh here, I never understood all this free and paid stuff shenanigans. We cant lets say compare ost free unlocks to UKF\USF free stuff. Aswell as we cant compare soviet free stuff to OKW free stuff.

All that matters at the end of the day - how fast factions can reach their first tank. Right now, if we consider realistic play, with all usuall side grades, free grades, weapon upgrades and so on. All the faction more or less have fair timing in terms of how fast they can have\get their armor and armor counters.

I think this is what matters the most.

Actually, if we consider side unlocks that are mandatory meta, ost will hands down get med earliest, its not even funny how much faster if they get that AEC/Stuart/T-70 on a teller early, preventing them from losing map control in early mid game.

Tbh here, I never understood all this free and paid stuff shenanigans. We cant lets say compare ost free unlocks to UKF\USF free stuff. Aswell as we cant compare soviet free stuff to OKW free stuff.

All that matters at the end of the day - how fast factions can reach their first tank. Right now, if we consider realistic play, with all usuall side grades, free grades, weapon upgrades and so on. All the faction more or less have fair timing in terms of how fast they can have\get their armor and armor counters.

I think this is what matters the most.

for what its worth, i dont have a problem with con side grades, in theory. they allow cons to be cheap enough for map control and then built up into what you need/want at a later time. again in theory.
The thing with this system, is that the unit IS more expensive due to the addition cost of the extras. if this is accounted for then its a great system- but soviet are paying roughtly the same as their enemeies for cons as they are for their mainline, but then extra for these upgrades and the 160mp for tech nukes their mapcontrol... if you tewch t1/2 at the start and want molitovs you have removed an entire consquad worth of manpower for an ability that really isnt worthwhile unless you are vetted, at which point the short range and maneuverabil8ty in mid game punishes it as well..

i guess basicly, what im getting at is that its a lot of drawbacks and not a lot of benefit

All that matters at the end of the day - how fast factions can reach their first tank.

That's too simplistic and detached from what happens in the game, which has given us our current meta state.


How much does each faction start with resources?

How much do they spend at the first 3/4 mins of the game in tech and what do they get out of it?

How much does it cost to get a light vehicle? How much for a light tank?

How much does it cost to get a normal army composition, without medium tanks, including infantry upgrades and healing.

THEN it counts the timing for medium tanks.


It's not about total tech cost, it's about how much are they spending at different timings in the game. Specially mp rather than fuel.

snip

And there is dynamic map control on top of that, how long you held your fuel, how long you managed to disrupt opponents fuel, which is directly impacted by build order too.
1v1 and 2v2 is not the same as immovable trench line of WW1 played in 4v4.

Actually, if we consider side unlocks that are mandatory meta, ost will hands down get med earliest, its not even funny how much faster if they get that AEC/Stuart/T-70 on a teller early, preventing them from losing map control in early mid game.

Its true. But again its a capitalization on power for UKF\USF. Soviets T70 can be considered true mandatory LV. But again, every sain person would agree, that soviets in general arent the best designed faction in terms of how their tech works and it should be looked at, at some point.

That's too simplistic and detached from what happens in the game, which has given us our current meta state.

Well, it is what it is. While you are right in way, still in current meta, no matter if you like or hate it, all factions more or less have fair timings of all nessesry tools they need. Execution of this might be far from being perfect, but the point point is still remains the same, that over-all free or payed grades are somewhat compinsated evenly across the faction by timings and costs.

So "X gets Y for free, while Z have to pay", arent really helping anybody.

Well, it is what it is. While you are right in way, still in current meta, no matter if you like or hate it, all factions more or less have fair timings of all nessesry tools the need. Execution of this might be far from being perfect, but the point point is still remains the same, that over-all free or payed grades are somewhat compinsated evenly across the faction.

So "X gets Y for free, while Z have to pay", arent really helping anybody.

I agree with your last point, but i don't with the bolded part.

Soviets and OKW are in their current position due to their tech. Check how much you spend in tech to get T2 + Conscript upgrades + T3 + T70 vs OKW going mechanized + P2. There's a reason also why OKW is getting more accessible medics as well, cause both USF/UKF can deal with mechanized in an efficient way.


If anything, all the current changes in the balance preview shows that tech is not in a good position overall. Specially early game. And that is only a consequence of making units "fair" which make them not able to carry their tech cost associated to unlock them.

So "X gets Y for free, while Z have to pay", arent really helping anybody.

the issue isnt in that such a system is in place, its that some people dont acknowledge that it IS an extra cost.
at the end of the day the molitov is "only" 80mp and 10 fuel, but its an extra cost that directly inflates the cost of cons.
pretending its not an additional cost helps even less.

Merge with only team-weapons is also an interesting idea, also Cons should only be able to merge with team-weapons too. (and other cons)


Edit:

Other idea:

- need CP1.
- build-able in HQ
- 210mp
- 5men squad -> 6th men passive with battle-phase-2
- LMG42 removed
- 2 weapon-slots

Other idea:

- make them non-doc (Osttruppen-Commander gets Beute-T34/76 as call-in | Def.-Commander gets hull-down instead)
- build-able in T2
- 200mp
- 6men squad
- LMG42 removed
- 2 weapon-slots

how about this

-built at t1
-200 mp
-6 man squad
-lmg42 removed
-squad reinforce cost increased from 16 to 18
-t4 "All out war" cost bonus removed
-New upgrade added "Ostlegionen" (costs 60 munitions requires Battle phase 1)

Osttruppen gain:

squad size increased from 6 to 7
out of cover penalty removed
reinforce cost decreased from 18 to 16

Soviets and OKW are in their current position due to their tech. Check how much you spend in tech to get T2 + Conscript upgrades + T3 + T70 vs OKW going mechanized + P2. There's a reason also why OKW is getting more accessible medics as well, cause both USF/UKF can deal with mechanized in an efficient way.

Well without going into the offtopic too much. I partly agree, but soviets and OKW are two simular but completly different cases, imho.

OKW is the case of messed up unit timings due to tech cost standatization across the factions and the fact that WFA and EFA are not equal, not even close. Best example are oberts, who arrives usually when the WFA have an upper hand over them, and they have to grind vet fast to catch up, while they are fine against Soviets.

Soviets are the case of old Relic design and complete removal of cheesiness, without proper ajustments of power and costs.

But thing is soviets are tied to Ost just as Ost tied to soviets. Right now, I would say, Soviet vs Ostheer is more or less even, with probably ost having slight advantage due to MG42 and all the skips they can do.

Ultimatly both Soviets and Ostheer rely on somesort of carry unit. Ost vs WFA is fully dependent on MG42 play, untill like midgame and even after. Even sniper is not as important as MG42.

Soviets are fine early to mid game vs OKW, but fall flat on their ass ones OKW start gaining StGs and elite inf, making a T70 a go for unit.

I honestly just belive that both USF\UKF put powel level way to high, while Ost is tied to Soviets in terms of power and vise versa, OKW has to balance between strong WFA and objectively weaker EFA.

at the end of the day the molitov is "only" 80mp and 10 fuel, but its an extra cost that directly inflates the cost of cons.
pretending its not an additional cost helps even less.

I would rather call it, additional cost that you are expected to pay at some point. I mean, its true what you are saying. I'm not fully agree that side grades inflates cost of cons.

But at the end of a day, in live version and meta, if you got AT nades as Soviets, you didnt put yourself in a resources disadvantage, because, as I've said, you are kinda expected to unlock AT nades at some point.
While if you for some reason didnt and managed to pull it off without AT nades, then you've made a savings and you can tech faster.

I can agree that it just feels unfair, because all other factions get snares for free and all the side grades\free grades focusing more on power increase, while soviets side grades (AT nades) are mandatory abilities.

how about this

-built at t1
-200 mp
-6 man squad
-lmg42 removed
-squad reinforce cost increased from 16 to 18
-t4 "All out war" cost bonus removed
-New upgrade added "Ostlegionen" (costs 60 munitions requires Battle phase 1)

Osttruppen gain:

squad size increased from 6 to 7
out of cover penalty removed
reinforce cost decreased from 18 to 16

That could work, but in my mind a too large nerf. If they can't be spamed they need some extras to stay attractive an useful. Beside it seems with Osttruppen commanders the change stays insteresting, let's say like:

- T1
- 6-man-squad
- price up to 220, reinforce to 18
- lmg42 removed
- vet1 heal-removed
- can build now sand-bags and wire non-doc.

Osttruppen gain:

- vet1 passive out-of-cover-bonus, 3-5sec. incoming damage to 0,9 (duck-animation as indicator), needs 10sec. out of combat.
- vet3 out of cover penalty removed
- T3 "Beutewaffen", 45mun weapon-upgrade adds 1*SVT, 1*PPsh (stats of Pio-MP40), 1*Lee-Enfield (no slot-needed) -> that should be a decent buff for all ranges.

# Osttruppen-Commander gets "hull-down" instead of trenches.

# "relief infantry" and double-Osttruppen-callin also get the Osttruppen gain

People thinking Gren is the weakest mainline in the game.

Am I the only one who think Gren would be fine, just by reduce popcap 7 to 6?

I suggest a +3 sight bonus in place of RA removal for 5 man vsl.

Pioneer Medkits are redundant and serve extremely limited purpose in the current game. Being available on both Grenadiers and Ostruppen limits their utility to Assault Grenadier openers and 2x Pio, 2x MG42 openers, both of which make dubious use Medkits.

Some Alternatives:

Destroy Cover: With all the discussion about sandbags, I think there needs to be some consideration for easier ways to destroy them early on. Being able to clear opposing cover to give your MGs good sight lines and deny enemy cover would be a useful addition to the faction.

Repair Critical: A missing ability in the faction, Repair Critical would make those early vetted Pioneers more valuable for getting your vehicles back into the fight.

Salvage: Probably unlikely, but it would be a nice way to get a small income boost with Ost.

Also, maybe you can give Rear Echelons a more useful ability while you are at it.

People thinking Gren is the weakest mainline in the game.

Am I the only one who think Gren would be fine, just by reduce popcap 7 to 6?

People just secretly want to play other factions with run and gun or a move main lines, but dont want to admit it.

In relation to grens i think that sections need a hammer and anvil approach with double slots or 5 men, not both. I say rifles are mostly fine imo. And put self heal back to vet 3 on volks.

Pioneer Medkits are redundant and serve extremely limited purpose in the current game. Being available on both Grenadiers and Ostruppen limits their utility to Assault Grenadier openers and 2x Pio, 2x MG42 openers, both of which make dubious use Medkits.

Some Alternatives:

Destroy Cover: With all the discussion about sandbags, I think there needs to be some consideration for easier ways to destroy them early on. Being able to clear opposing cover to give your MGs good sight lines and deny enemy cover would be a useful addition to the faction.

Repair Critical: A missing ability in the faction, Repair Critical would make those early vetted Pioneers more valuable for getting your vehicles back into the fight.

Salvage: Probably unlikely, but it would be a nice way to get a small income boost with Ost.

Also, maybe you can give Rear Echelons a more useful ability while you are at it.

You can find use in medkits on every unit. It's a good tool to have for 4 man squads but somewhat of a Relic of the days where soft retreats were more dominant. At any rate you do not want to slow up your fighting infantry to have to heal your pak.

People just secretly want to play other factions with run and gun or a move main lines, but dont want to admit it.

In relation to grens i think that sections need a hammer and anvil approach with double slots or 5 men, not both. I say rifles are mostly fine imo. And put self heal back to vet 3 on volks.

I had exactly the same idea for either Double slot or 5 men.

I had 3v3 last night, Okw Okw Ost vs Brit Brit Sov. We were heavy dominated by main line infantry spam since the very beginning.

Volk stg sure power spike over Conscript, though Volk almost harmless vs Shock. Not mention double Bren Tommy, Officier, Commandos. Every single Brit infantry just storm over Axis