[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion

You just speak my mind.

As a 2vs2 Ostheer player, I don't really see much use in using the Panther right now: everything is so so mediocre and it doesn't really do anything against infantry. Like the only thing it got going for is speed and high durability.

Which Allies can just lay cheap 30muni mine to denied the "speed" for flanking and high durability also meaning easier vet gain for Allies TD like SU-85 / Jackson (which by feeding them to vet 2 or 3, my panther even when showing frontal armor is not that good anymore)

I rather just going for the Brumbar + Elefant + PG Sherck right now to outright destroy Allies TD / Infantry / AT gun in 2vs2.

I know that if we ask for any form of buff for Panther will result it being spam in other games mode so I'm not gonna touch on that, I'm just express my mind that in my 2vs2 game (Usually Top 100), I rather going for my combo then getting a Panther out which is not a threat against Infantry like the Comet or T34/85mm and also a vet feeding system for SU85 / Jackson.

P/S: if ya people play lots of 2vs2, those Alllies do lay down lots of mines, explains why I don't really like to Blitz a Panther to flank (which it penetrate and accuracy is not even that good lol)

You described the 2v2 environment very well 😊

I can't speak for the others, but I think the choice between the Panther and the Jagdpanzer IV / StuG is mostly a player preference and/or map/situation dependant. One isn't necessarily better/worse than the other against similar targets. I'd say all of them perform roughly similar against most targets at the moment. The JP4 has the range and DPM advantage, the StuG has the cost effectiveness advantage (get two for 1 Panther) and the Panther has the generalist/brawler advantage.

The Panther however, is a mix of mostly mediocre characteristics. It has mediocre DPM, mediocre accuracy, kinda mediocre pen (for an AT vehicle), good but not fantastic mobility, held together with high durability. The complete package is good, but any one of those aspects on its own isn't anything to write home about. It is supposed to expose itself though, mostly by diving, where the current accuracy is often not adequate and it makes dives/attacks more risky than they should be. That is why it is being buffed slightly.

That being said, the accuracy buff is being toned down in V2. And if it turns out that the Panther with increased accuracy becomes too good, then we can nerf something else about it later.

Why then not just buff the moving accuracy?
This would reinforce the mobile role that it has while not competing that much with the anti medium role of StuG/JP4.

I think the general sentiment is that the Panther is already in a decent spot, straight buffs are quite dangerous in that regard.

Why then not just buff the moving accuracy?
This would reinforce the mobile role that it has while not competing that much with the anti medium role of StuG/JP4.

I think the general sentiment is that the Panther is already in a decent spot, straight buffs are quite dangerous in that regard.

I would prefer a buff to moving accuracy as well. I like playing with the Panther on the move. But I always must keep track of reload time to ensure to stop the vehicle right before it shoots so it can get the best accuracy values. And I think my opponents keep track of that too. I would prefer not having to do that every time to avoid one of the downsides of the Panther.

I can't speak for the others, but I think the choice between the Panther and the Jagdpanzer IV / StuG is mostly a player preference and/or map/situation dependant. One isn't necessarily better/worse than the other against similar targets. I'd say all of them perform roughly similar against most targets at the moment. The JP4 has the range and DPM advantage, the StuG has the cost effectiveness advantage (get two for 1 Panther) and the Panther has the generalist/brawler advantage.

The Panther however, is a mix of mostly mediocre characteristics. It has mediocre DPM, mediocre accuracy, kinda mediocre pen (for an AT vehicle), good but not fantastic mobility, held together with high durability. The complete package is good, but any one of those aspects on its own isn't anything to write home about. It is supposed to expose itself though, mostly by diving, where the current accuracy is often not adequate and it makes dives/attacks more risky than they should be. That is why it is being buffed slightly.

That being said, the accuracy buff is being toned down in V2. And if it turns out that the Panther with increased accuracy becomes too good, then we can nerf something else about it later.

I feel a lack of balance in your opinion, you've constently reduced SU-85 and Jackson stats so they don't become all-around TD counters even if their respective factions have no other stock units able to fill the gap but when it comes to the panther suddenly it has to become an all-around counter to medium, heavy and super heavy even if stug and jpz4 exists.
I really wonder why you don't apply the exact same logic for the panther: make it a heavy counter and Stug/jpz4 answers to mediums. Buff it ok, but to only be really effective vs Comets and above, and make sure it's not anymore the correct answer to T34,crom and shermans.

We're again all over circling back with this panther buff to the state where mediums have no place in game for the sake of one side having their iconic toy able to run over anything else.

I generally support changes that increase consistency/reduce RNG, so I don't care about this particular buff, since I already assume Panthers land 100 % of their shots when facing them, but for the same reason I dislike the nerfs to allied TDs and the generally low pen on ZIS. I feel that this kind of small bounce RNG on AT guns and TDs specifically has no place in a competitive environment.

I Agree with Dharx here. A small increase/decrease in bouncing/missing is not a good way of balancing. That is why I have proposed upping the heavy tank destroyers to 200 damage and make the heavy tanks health divisible by 200. This will make the heavy tank destroyers good vs heavies but decrease their cost efficiency vs mediums.

I would prefer a buff to moving accuracy as well. I like playing with the Panther on the move. But I always must keep track of reload time to ensure to stop the vehicle right before it shoots so it can get the best accuracy values. And I think my opponents keep track of that too. I would prefer not having to do that every time to avoid one of the downsides of the Panther.

But that's it's only downside... Literally. You buff moving acc and you have a tank with no weaknesses.
Agility? One of the best.
Armour? 2nd best stock.
AT? Combined with ROF one of the best
HP? Best stock
AI? OK with pintle mG, mediocre without

Compare to Comet which is in the price class with the Panther:
Agiltiy? Less accel, higher speed -> on par
Armour? 30 more
AT? Much less with lower ROF and lower range/penetration
HP? 160 less
AI? OK at all times

Overall they are on par with different units filling different roles. Panther leans more to the AT side while Comet leans more to the AI side. Buff panther moving ACC and you literally remove the only weakness on it.

But that's it's only downside... Literally. You buff moving acc and you have a tank with no weaknesses.
Agility? One of the best.
Armour? 2nd best stock.
AT? Combined with ROF one of the best
HP? Best stock
AI? OK with pintle mG, mediocre without

Compare to Comet which is in the price class with the Panther:
Agiltiy? Less accel, higher speed -> on par
Armour? 30 more
AT? Much less with lower ROF and lower range/penetration
HP? 160 less
AI? OK at all times

Overall they are on par with different units filling different roles. Panther leans more to the AT side while Comet leans more to the AI side. Buff panther moving ACC and you literally remove the only weakness on it.

Yeah, moving accuracy is my personal biased preference for buffs, but I did not say that it is the solution that should be implemented. I know and accept that the Panther is good despite being the sum of mediocre stuff, but I also think the Panther needs a bit of a change somewhere, and I am not sure the current patch does the right thing. I'd welcome a small change to a better moving accuracy.

But that's it's only downside... Literally. You buff moving acc and you have a tank with no weaknesses.
Agility? One of the best.
Armour? 2nd best stock.
AT? Combined with ROF one of the best
HP? Best stock
AI? OK with pintle mG, mediocre without

Compare to Comet which is in the price class with the Panther:
Agiltiy? Less accel, higher speed -> on par
Armour? 30 more
AT? Much less with lower ROF and lower range/penetration
HP? 160 less
AI? OK at all times

Overall they are on par with different units filling different roles. Panther leans more to the AT side while Comet leans more to the AI side. Buff panther moving ACC and you literally remove the only weakness on it.

Panther's armor is good against mediums but okay at best against Allied TD and gets bad once they vet up (in your comparison: Comet has 30 more armor despite facing vehicles with generally lower pen). ROF of the Panther is also middlish.

I did not suggest a "make it impossible for the Panther to miss on the move" change. I think a change from 0.5 to 0.6 or so would not be that bad overall. And it also would not roll back the previous buff to mediums as much.

A panther firing on T-34/76 has a

120%/90%/70% chance to score a natural hit at range 0/25/50 and 60%/45%/35 if moving.

At vet 2 it will have 132%/99%/77% and 66%/49.5%/38.5 if moving.

(Vet 2 requiring 4.080 XP, roughly killing 3 T-34/76)

Panther's armor is good against mediums but okay at best against Allied TD and gets bad once they vet up .

Excellent, that’s exactly how it should be.

I think a change from 0.5 to 0.6 or so would not be that bad overall. And it also would not roll back the previous buff to mediums as much.

Ok....and? What does this accomplish? A pretty pointless buff to an OP unit. Why is this needed?

There are many more AT sources than just the Panther.

I know that why i find the panther acc buff strange.

Hello! I played the Winter Patch mod.
I was surprised:
- SU-76 "Good change". Especially disguise for 1 veterancy.
- T-34 (All options: 76 and 85) did not see anything to change. How many times I ram any enemy technique, all the same breaks down all the T-34 than the enemy. "Bad change / redo it again." I would give the T-34 some kind of improvement! and then why the United States, the British, OKW and the Wehrmacht are getting better technology than the USSR ???
- M3 scout "Good change option". Especially the general receipt of veteran status, It just plays a bad role, when: Armor from 5.4 / 4.2 to 3.8 / 3.5, then the cost of the unit must be changed. from 190/15 to 180/10.
- ZiS-3 (I can't see the change finally) better solve the problems with an artillery shot from the ZiS-3, otherwise this unit doesn't move YOU!
- Special Rifle Command-what is it or is it T1???
- Katyusha "I don't see a solution". it is better to remove 1 veteran ability "Creeping Barrage" to "Incendiary missiles or smoke missiles".


Now what do I want to see the Winter patch updates from the USSR?
1) Change the Assault kit for Recruits.
- - The "Lie down!" ability is ineffective with 3x PPSH-41 better than 3x SVT-40 or 2x DP-28
- Or remove the "Lie down!" and replace the Molotov cocktail with a grenade (if we are talking about an Assault kit.)
2) Add improvements to Medium and Heavy tanks
- T-34 (all variants 76 and 85) give an improvement of "OT-34" with a cost of 75-100 Ammo. Of exchange rate changes on exchange rate of the heavy flamethrower and rename to ot-34 (Flamethrower tank 34)
- T-34 (all variants 76 and 85) give an improvement to "Shielded shields" with a cost of 100/25. Increases armor by +10% and reduces: either the chance of damage to modules from Panzerfaust, Or -15% of the damage received.
3) ISU-152
"Excuse me, people, but this is beyond that." Why does the ISU-152 deal 240 damage when it has a 152mm caliber? Do elephant 88mm and Jagdtigra 128mm deal 320 damage than ISU-152????
- Change the damage for ISU-152 from 240 to 320
- If you don't like it then change the cost and CP. (due to damage and shooting distance)
4) Is-2
"also needs changes. Because of the caliber of the Tiger 88mm and the is-2 122mm and the damage and distance are bad."
- Change damage from 160 to 200 (2-3 vet increases to 240 damage)
- Is-2 give an improvement to "Shielded shields" with a cost of 100/25. Increases armor by +10% and reduces: either the chance of damage to modules from Panzerfaust, Or -15% of the damage received.

Panther's armor is good against mediums but okay at best against Allied TD and gets bad once they vet up (in your comparison: Comet has 30 more armor despite facing vehicles with generally lower pen). ROF of the Panther is also middlish.

I did not suggest a "make it impossible for the Panther to miss on the move" change. I think a change from 0.5 to 0.6 or so would not be that bad overall. And it also would not roll back the previous buff to mediums as much.

And it dominates all of the mediums. From t34 to the Comet and is countered by allied TDs at which point axis can no longer have leeway with the Panther. Literally how it should be. A good player will always take advantage of the Panther, no matter what it goes against. Against USF it will always bleed munitions on Jackson and AT gun. Vs Soviets it will dominate if the map allows it as SU85 is quite bad at tracking with limited cannon rotation. Vs UKF Panther can take advantage of it's speed to outmaneuver the Firefly (Hence I don't think that Firefly should have gotten that buff, it was good enough as it is, let the panther be faster than it's main gun).
Comet facing vehicles with lower penetration is a valid point, but JP4 and Stug are more than enough to scare it away. The fact that the Panther can survive 2 snares plays into the fact that it has to stop to shoot. This buff was not warranted but couldn't care less at the end of the day. I know how to deal with it. With 50 range, you have ample time to stop and fire, with the survivability on it. Jackson has 60 range but is easily penetrated by everything. Firefly has poor agility and ROF but high dmg/pen. SU85 has no turret but has narrow self spotting. Hence Panther has great everything except moving accuracy. So that it can take advantage of those weaknesses.

And in the end, it's combined arms that win the game. How can you say it's armour is okay at best vs TDs.... what are TDs supposed to do other than kill tanks?

You want it's armour to be great vs everything but the elefant or something?
Saying "Panther's armor is good against mediums but okay at best against Allied TD and gets bad once they vet up" is an argument in my favour. That's literally how it's supposed to be.

Excellent, that’s exactly how it should be.

Not sure why you responded to this but at least we can agree on that.

Ok....and? What does this accomplish? A pretty pointless buff to an OP unit. Why is this needed?

Read the post. I was asking Sander why balance team is buffing accuracy instead of moving acc if they think that the Panther needs to perform better in dives.

Not sure why you responded to this but at least we can agree on that.



Read the post. I was asking Sander why balance team is buffing accuracy instead of moving acc if they think that the Panther needs to perform better in dives.

I'm just adding on to your points and disputing the need for a Panther buff altogether.

...

You are projecting points into my post that I did not make. I only commented on your comparison where the points you made are misleading to players not knowing as much unit stats. Yes, Panther has good armor for its role, but comparing the armor of the Panther and Comet is pretty much useless and neglects the complete unit context.

The Panther has an armor value that fits its role, Allies have counters available. It having the second highest armor value is pretty much useless info. ROF as well, that's why I pointed these out.

I feel a lack of balance in your opinion, you've constently reduced SU-85 and Jackson stats so they don't become all-around TD counters

The Jackson and SU-85 have barely been touched in years. None of the stats changes that did happen would suggest a goal to make them less all rounders. Their maximum penetration has been decreased by a little bit to make them a bit worse against heavy vehicles. They are still as effective against mediums and lights as they have been for years now. The Firefly got a buff that will help it against more mobile threats (i.e. mediums) so its all round performance will actually increase.

Why then not just buff the moving accuracy?

Increasing base accuracy has the benefit of increasing moving accuracy marginally, while keeping most of the increase locked behind player micro. Players will have to stop-move the tank to get the maximum results out of this change. This way Panther "blobs" charging forward without micro shouldn't become that much more effective, and it should keep the Panther from becoming too good a chaser.

Increasing base accuracy has the benefit of increasing moving accuracy marginally, while keeping most of the increase locked behind player micro. Players will have to stop-move the tank to get the maximum results out of this change. This way Panther "blobs" charging forward without micro shouldn't become that much more effective, and it should keep the Panther from becoming too good a chaser.

I still disagree but I can see a reasoning behind this. Although I think the Panther is a good unit in the current state, but well let's see what this change will do in the test phase

They are still as effective against mediums as they have been for years now.

While in terms of penetration that is true, I fail to see the point of this. In general terms they are less effective against mediums since the Winter patch, why do you have to make up a new standard (penetration) to state that somehow they've been untouched in years? They were indirectly nerfed, alongside all other heavy tanks, TDs and AT guns, against medium tanks.

The target sizes of the 2 panzer IV variants have gone from 22 to 20, reducing the overall effectiveness of the SU85 and M36 against medium tanks. That is a fact.

At the same time, the buff to USF and SOV mediums' target sizes is being inexplicably reverted in the context of the Panther, alongside a ram nerf, in order to make the Panther the only unit necessary for Axis players against medium/heavy armour and TDs. It was my understanding that the Panther was intended as a stock counter to heavy tanks, with StuGG and JPIV acting as the choice against medium tanks. This now goes out the window, making the Panther better against what it’s not intended to hard counter.

It would help a lot if we were given context as to why this change was included in the first place. What kind of Panther weakness is being fixed in order to improve it in what role and how the other 2 TDs fit in that picture.

The Jackson and SU-85 have barely been touched in years. None of the stats changes that did happen would suggest a goal to make them less all rounders. Their maximum penetration has been decreased by a little bit to make them a bit worse against heavy vehicles. They are still as effective against mediums and lights as they have been for years now. The Firefly got a buff that will help it against more mobile threats (i.e. mediums) so its all round performance will actually increase.

Jackson and SU-85 have been constantly nerfed (directly or indirectly) on the last patches so mediums can dive and kill them with more ease. And I'm not against those changes.

Now we have an other TD that no medium can match that being buffed because? Panther already win vs any medium, any medium+ any heavy and any super heavy allied factions can field.