[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion

I would undo the sniper change and go with the option of giving snipers 0.75x their current speed while walking around and 1x their current retreat speed while retreating. That way unsupported snipers can be countered by running after them.

*Laughs in Sprinting LMG Obers*

Regarding the sniper discussion, I think we could also have some more options:

- Reducing speed in general

- reducing speed when in combat

- reducing speed out of cover (would emphasize the stealth part more)

- this one would require more rework: Make them waaaay cheaper (250-280 MP maybe) but decrease the ROF (and potentially pop cost). This way snipers would similarly long pay for themselves and could be used more for non-fighting duty. But most importantly: The whole early game would not revolve around them so much, since the loss of a sniper would still be bearable while not using it 100% effectively would also be okay since the investment is not as high. Also, bleed for the opponent is not as high until vehicles come onto the field to provide counters.

Regarding the sniper discussion, I think we could also have some more options:

- Reducing speed in general

- reducing speed when in combat

- reducing speed out of cover (would emphasize the stealth part more)

- this one would require more rework: Make them waaaay cheaper (250-280 MP maybe) but decrease the ROF (and potentially pop cost). This way snipers would similarly long pay for themselves and could be used more for non-fighting duty. But most importantly: The whole early game would not revolve around them so much, since the loss of a sniper would still be bearable while not using it 100% effectively would also be okay since the investment is not as high. Also, bleed for the opponent is not as high until vehicles come onto the field to provide counters.

In that design I think it would be more interesting if sniper had weapon similar to JLI with critical kill on a threshold vs infatry and critical kill vs support weapons or critical full hp kills required come with restrictions or timed ability better suited vs support weapon and not infatry. (although it might be a little complicated to mod)

Maybe try the Jibber version of this idea where the speed debuff is only triggered when someone shoots at the sniper/sniper enters combat?

I like it.

In that design I think it would be more interesting if sniper had weapon similar to JLI with critical kill on a threshold vs infatry and critical kill vs support weapons or critical full hp kills required come with restrictions or timed ability better suited vs support weapon and not infatry. (although it might be a little complicated to mod)

It's been suggested before that snipers as-is be replaced with Light Infantry units for all armies. As much as I like snipers, they are an unit apart from almost all others in how they function, and how certain factions struggle to fight them.

Snipers should be limited to 1. Dual sniper will always be cheesy and a balance problem against 4-man units.

Also change the automatic kill so it only applies to shots from cover. This will limit the kiting run and gun play.

Great update! Few things I would like to see:

-Infantry not auto-attacking vehicels that they cant damage/penetrate
-Infantry not auto-attacking structures/buildings

This would make the update even better imho

I'm also curious what triggered the sniper nerf

I'm also curious what triggered the sniper nerf

Possibly some single game from a 1v1 top player, because I can't imagine snipers being issue below absolutely top level play in very specific match-ups.

Possible some single game from a 1v1 top player, because I can't imagine snipers being issue below absolutely to level play in very specific match-ups.

Probably. That sniper nerf seems like some major pressure from some "major" player or some game, like you said. Even though I main as USF and it's quite cancerous to play vs snipers, I've never had any problems with them... don't know why nerf snipers.

-Infantry not auto-attacking vehicels that they cant damage/penetrate
-Infantry not auto-attacking structures/buildings

Altough I agree infantry firing small arms at tanks looks a bit stupid, I don't think this can be changed. Infantry likely won't be able to distinguish between which vehicles they can damage (so vehicles with low enough armor that small arms can penetrate it) and which ones they can't. It'd probably be the same for buildings; some can be damaged by small arms.

Possibly some single game from a 1v1 top player, because I can't imagine snipers being issue below absolutely top level play in very specific match-ups.

There's an irrational hatred against snipers. Just like there is one against Tommies. People just dislike playing against them. Ironically a lot of people hate both of them and by nerfing sniper they buffed tommies.

Btw: what you described happened to the Scott. One tournament game where it performed well because OKW kept playing into it and everybody is screaming for nerfs.

There's an irrational hatred against snipers.

There is hatred, but it is not irrational. They do not fit into the core cover gameplay because they ignore it. Furthermore Relic has failed to provide proper counters and has made the mistake (again) to not give all factions access to one. This makes them very annoying to deal with for many players, especially when you are playing OKW or USF.

I dislike them as well, I think they should have been replaced by recon squads like JLI or Pathfinders with more utility. Do note though that this is just my personal opinion, I didn't weigh in on these sniper changes as it's more of a 1v1 affair.

I do think the current changes to the sniper might be fine on their own but that they might be a bit too much in conjunction with the HMG crew formation changes because this causes some issues. Something to keep an eye on.

Btw: what you described happened to the Scott. One tournament game where it performed well because OKW kept playing into it and everybody is screaming for nerfs.

The Scott has been on the list of overperforming/annoying units to tackle for years. It's been touched before but those changes haven't had the desired effect yet. Now they're being followed up on. The Scott has been on both my and Miragefla's balance wishlists for months. We would never let 1 game or 1 player, or outcry because of 1 game, influence decision making.

There is hatred, but it is not irrational. They do not fit into the core cover gameplay because they ignore it. Furthermore Relic has failed to provide proper counters and has made the mistake (again) to not give all factions access to one. This makes them very annoying to deal with for many players.

I dislike them as well, I think they should have been replaced by recon squads like JLI or Pathfinders with more utility. Do note though that this is just my personal opinion, I didn't weigh in on these sniper changes as it's more of a 1v1 affair.

I do think the current changes to the sniper might be fine on their own but that they might be a bit too much in conjunction with the HMG crew formation changes because this causes some issues. Something to keep an eye on.

Think the least annoying one although powerful is the UKF on probably because he arrive later. If one delay the the Ostheer/soviet one maybe it would easier to balance.

The Scott has been on the list of overperforming/annoying units to tackle for years. It's been touched before but those changes haven't had the desired effect yet. Now they're being followed up on. The Scott has been on both my and Miragefla's balance wishlists for months. We would never let 1 game or 1 player, or outcry because of 1 game, influence decision making.

I find the "fictional" stories behind the changes counter productive.

The important question will the change improve the game or not?

There's an irrational hatred against snipers. Just like there is one against Tommies. People just dislike playing against them. Ironically a lot of people hate both of them and by nerfing sniper they buffed tommies.

i mean theres also an irrational hatred for the soviet faction and everything in it... why else would the balance team kill an already struggling faction?

There is hatred, but it is not irrational. They do not fit into the core cover gameplay because they ignore it. Furthermore Relic has failed to provide proper counters and has made the mistake (again) to not give all factions access to one. This makes them very annoying to deal with for many players.

I dislike them as well, I think they should have been replaced by recon squads like JLI or Pathfinders with more utility. Do note though that this is just my personal opinion, I didn't weigh in on these sniper changes as it's more of a 1v1 affair.

I do think the current changes to the sniper might be fine on their own but that they might be a bit too much in conjunction with the HMG crew formation changes because this causes some issues. Something to keep an eye on.

The Scott has been on the list of overperforming/annoying units to tackle for years. It's been touched before but those changes haven't had the desired effect yet. Now they're being followed up on. The Scott has been on both my and Miragefla's balance wishlists for months. We would never let 1 game or 1 player, or outcry because of 1 game, influence decision making.

I'd say both are more annoying than overpowered in most matchups. Regarding the Scott I was referring to my personal impression of the community.

Glad to hear you see the HMG/Sniper problem.

I completely agree that snipers are broken design. The irrationality comes into play when judging their strength. No units balancing gets complained about more and oftentimes unjustified.

Recon utility squads with a snipe shot would be my dream solution to at least somewhat negate the sniper problem USF and OKW have but I'm asuming this would be out of scope?

Altough I agree infantry firing small arms at tanks looks a bit stupid, I don't think this can be changed. Infantry likely won't be able to distinguish between which vehicles they can damage (so vehicles with low enough armor that small arms can penetrate it) and which ones they can't. It'd probably be the same for buildings; some can be damaged by small arms.

Wouldn't it be possible to add prioritize vehicles? Would be a good QoL change, wouldn't you agree? Please tell me it's possible.

Also, how exactly is Scott overperforming? What's the brainstorm behind that decision? 1v1? 2v2+? Autofire too OP?

Also, how exactly is Scott overperforming? What's the brainstorm behind that decision? 1v1? 2v2+? Autofire too OP?

The main issue with the Scott is while it's very good at auto-fire, probably too good, it fails to serve as functional artillery for the late-game of USF. It's AOE profile is very good at killing models, but is very poor at wounding or damaging models which is more prominent on the barrage which is known for very poor accuracy and you need to deal good AOE damage since most shells from barrage abilities don't land directly on target or are fired from further ranges into the FOW.

It's not serving the USF faction well enough in its other function as artillery to compensate for the lack of rocket or heavy artillery, with its best performance being Sherman HE lite.

Will we ever get a sniper for each faction? that's one of the dumbest design choices to leave'em out for USF & OKW while others have'em. #Sniperforeveryfaction