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Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?

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26 Nov 2020, 11:12 AM
#21
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 10:56 AMVipper

You have claimed:
Pg where put in T0 in May 2019. As false as the earth is flat.
Pg where "megabuf" before put in T0. As false as the earth is flat.
....
Care to provide any prof for you claims?


The proof is that the MOD team moved PG to to T0 you on the other hand have not provided anything to back up you own claim.

And since you are not a moderator PLS stop telling others to "shut up".


his proof is that he is in the top 100 therefore, anything he says is automatically factual and he is above everyone else.

If/when ostruppen get nerfed, this will deal with any pgrens hitting the field too early
26 Nov 2020, 11:15 AM
#22
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 306

ok you wanna talk power creep?

So what unit got buffed in the first 3 min to justify the PGs arriving at that point?
USF got a small buff on riflemen and Sov got nothing (besides SVTS).

And guess what try stop 3min pgs when all you have is conscripts (you cant) maxim just gets countered by a vehilce of ostheer choice leaving dshka the only option.

Brits were always an different issue.

But please stop talking like 3 min pgs are fine vs soviet, becouse guess what they are not. They basically removed soviet from competive 1vs1

As long as ostheer will be able to skip t1 and go PGs directly they will always remain a problem (unless they nerf their performace which i dont think is a good idea)
26 Nov 2020, 11:15 AM
#23
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

As long as grens remain a bad mainline infantry we can't nerf pzgrens.
26 Nov 2020, 11:16 AM
#24
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

As long as grens remain a bad mainline infantry we can't nerf pzgrens.


5man Grens are broken OP and LMG Grens are very good.

26 Nov 2020, 11:23 AM
#25
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

100 mp delay will not kill Pgs :D i dont know where this idea came from.


It's a bit more nuanced than that. It's not just a 100mp delay, you have to add the build time for T2 too. And the time it takes for Pioneers to get back to the base, which also isn't always immediately possible. All this could easily delay them another 1-2m on average.

Anyway there are a few changes planned that will affect Panzergrenadiers, so keep an eye on the preview patch notes that will be dropping shortly.
26 Nov 2020, 11:23 AM
#26
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282



5man Grens are broken OP and LMG Grens are very good.



I mean stock grens, and no LMG grens are not good for 30 mp to reinforce without T4, and before vet 3 they are just bleeding you MP on every trade you might take, and for 30 Mp per lost model that become a huge investment to keep them until vet 3 + T4, plus being a 4 man squad is already a malus from the combined weapon tactics stand point (being unable to steal/recrew support weapon of your own).
That's why either you pick Ostruppen, either you rush Pzgrens.
26 Nov 2020, 11:33 AM
#27
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 213



5man Grens are broken OP and LMG Grens are very good.



Yes and no. I think lmg Grens are fine but thats debatable i guess. But they are not "very good" thats for sure.

About Pgrens:
Thats what happens when you triple buff units (Pgrens got a strong vet 1 ability, better timing and better vet spread).
The first step is to fix their timing imo. Move them into T2. You have to get that building anyway for at guns and 222, so its mostly just a little timing nerf. And if thats not enough you can rebalance their vet again. But i suggest to start with adjusting the timing at first and see what Osttruppen and 5Man Gren nerf does for the balance overall.

Penals are fine except their at upgrade, cause that gets worthless pretty fast. Maybe a t4 buff like cons get is needed.
26 Nov 2020, 11:33 AM
#28
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

I think the current perspective on PGrens is heavily scewed due to cheap Osttruppen and Ost T1 skip that frees a lot of MP to get PGrens very early.

Fixing Ost T1 might already go a long way.

That patch that everyone cites as either "pre-patch Pgrens too weak " or claim to be the alleged megabuff is 1,5 years old. We have seen a lot of other metas since then and PGrens were usually not the issue. If they were the main issue, then we should have seen this for the last one and a half years. Yet it is only recently that they are discussed about.

To me that's a clear sign that the problems lie elsewhere.
26 Nov 2020, 11:45 AM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

ok you wanna talk power creep?

So what unit got buffed in the first 3 min to justify the PGs arriving at that point?
...

And you still are missing my point, I never claimed that PG should be available so early.
On the contrary, I have repeatedly said that the strong units need to be delayed but for all factions.

I have simply point the problems of power creep and described the earlier access of Pg and Ober as necessary evil because of it. I have also pointed out that if one simply moves PG back to T2 without any other changes one will create the same issues.

Many year ago when Penal received their buffs I pointed out that if they continued down that path Pg would eventually have to be moved to T0 and my prediction proved to be right.
26 Nov 2020, 12:40 PM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

I think the current perspective on PGrens is heavily scewed due to cheap Osttruppen and Ost T1 skip that frees a lot of MP to get PGrens very early.
...

I have not seen all the game of WC2020 but from what I have seen, the PG use was limited to 1 or 2 units.
26 Nov 2020, 12:57 PM
#31
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 12:40 PMVipper

I have not seen all the game of WC2020 but from what I have seen, the PG use was limited to 1 or 2 units.

So? I don't see a point.
Most people seem to complain about their timing. My reasoning was that their timing even in T0 seems to be mostly fine and people complain about them because the Osttruppen meta allows them to come very early.
26 Nov 2020, 13:15 PM
#32
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


So? I don't see a point.
Most people seem to complain about their timing. My reasoning was that their timing even in T0 seems to be mostly fine and people complain about them because the Osttruppen meta allows them to come very early.


Yes their timing is early especially if ones skips T1, I am simply point out that contrary to OP claims they were hardly used as "mainline" infantry and they where not spammed.
26 Nov 2020, 13:35 PM
#33
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 13:15 PMVipper


Yes their timing is early especially if ones skips T1, I am simply point out that contrary to OP claims they were hardly used as "mainline" infantry and they where not spammed.

Codguy did not claim PGrens to be mainline infantry at all. Neither did he say anything about spamming.
26 Nov 2020, 13:38 PM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


Codguy did not claim PGrens to be mainline infantry at all. Neither did he say anything about spamming.

Op post:
"pretty much negates the idea that Allies have better "mainline" infantry"

That clearly implies that PG are work as ostheer mainline infatry since he is comparing them allied mainline infatry.

In order for PG to act as mainline infatry they need to be produced in numbers and be the core of the ostheer army. That is something that as far as I saw in the WC2020 was not the case.
26 Nov 2020, 13:45 PM
#35
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3


Codguy did not claim PGrens to be mainline infantry at all. Neither did he say anything about spamming.


No dude, only thing that matters is what Vipper understood. Whatever point you wanna make is irrelevant, he guides the discussion now.

I think the current perspective on PGrens is heavily scewed due to cheap Osttruppen and Ost T1 skip that frees a lot of MP to get PGrens very early.

Fixing Ost T1 might already go a long way.

That patch that everyone cites as either "pre-patch Pgrens too weak " or claim to be the alleged megabuff is 1,5 years old. We have seen a lot of other metas since then and PGrens were usually not the issue. If they were the main issue, then we should have seen this for the last one and a half years. Yet it is only recently that they are discussed about.

To me that's a clear sign that the problems lie elsewhere.


The problem was still there, but was overshadowed by everyone playing 24/7 Grand Offensive fusiliers into Command Tiger. With Ostheer becoming the meta now that heavy tank meta died, Pgrens stick out.
26 Nov 2020, 14:01 PM
#36
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

As long as grens remain a bad mainline infantry we can't nerf pzgrens.


soo since conscripts are equally bad can we have 3 minute T-70s to counter panzergrens? no? then nerf pgrens and be done with it...
26 Nov 2020, 14:20 PM
#37
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 14:01 PMgbem


soo since conscripts are equally bad can we have 3 minute T-70s to counter panzergrens? no? then nerf pgrens and be done with it...


*7 conscript laugh at your back*

Beside that, your biais is quite funny though.
26 Nov 2020, 14:33 PM
#38
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



*7 conscript laugh at your back*

Beside that, your biais is quite funny though.


7 man itself isnt that good... its vet 3 + 7 man that makes conscripts excel lategame... also i like how you forget that conscripts are even more trash than grens earlygame when fighting OST since the MG42 and pgrens exist....
26 Nov 2020, 14:35 PM
#39
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Nov 2020, 13:38 PMVipper

Op post:
"pretty much negates the idea that Allies have better "mainline" infantry"

That clearly implies that PG are work as ostheer mainline infatry since he is comparing them allied mainline infatry.

In order for PG to act as mainline infatry they need to be produced in numbers and be the core of the ostheer army. That is something that as far as I saw in the WC2020 was not the case.

Not necessarily. Allied mainline infantry is supposed to be better. The fact that PGrens arrive at a point were they do not have combat bonusses yet completely reverses this infantry advantage that Allies have over Axis. That's what his post says. And he still did not state anything with spamming.
I can also say a 7 minute Allied medium negates the idea of OKW having their LV power spike. Using Osttruppen negates sniper play. Blobbing MGs frontally negates the idea of infantry suppression. Does not mean that a blob is equal to an MG.

Still, this is a pretty nit picky wording discussion and has nothing to do with the actual topic.
26 Nov 2020, 14:44 PM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


Not necessarily. Allied mainline infantry is supposed to be better. The fact that PGrens arrive at a point were they do not have combat bonusses yet completely reverses this infantry advantage that Allies have over Axis. That's what his post says. And he still did not state anything with spamming.
I can also say a 7 minute Allied medium negates the idea of OKW having their LV power spike. Using Osttruppen negates sniper play. Blobbing MGs frontally negates the idea of infantry suppression. Does not mean that a blob is equal to an MG.

Still, this is a pretty nit picky wording discussion and has nothing to do with the actual topic.

Imo "pretty much negates the idea that Allies have better "mainline" infantry" says that Ostheer have better mainline infatry because of PG since it talk about the "idea" of better mainlines infatry and not negating the advantages of a better mainline. The argument is that Allies to not have better mainline infatry not that any advantage from mainline infatry in negated by other factors.

But there is no reason to dwell on this, I am pretty sure that Godguy cam explain what he meant to say if he wants to.

The important thing here that the number of Pg used per game in WC2020 seems to be small.
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