Future Balance Items by Relic

That may be the csse in 2v2+ but it certainly isnt in 1v1.

A player with Soviet Industry rushing T70's shouldn't have enough infantry to justify that you can't waste 60 ammo in one teller mine.

If you are talking about a player using Soviet Industry, then yes. It's OP and you can't do nothing to win without a good amount of luck.

If you are talking about a player without Soviet Industry, then you got overplayed if he can have 2 T70 whitout you having resources for a imminent StuG.



That's impossible without Soviet Industry commander.

And even so, it is common sense that you always should mine the entrance of your base. ALWAYS.
Even if that means one lmg less for your grens. Even more if you expect T70 rush.



Yes, it should be more expensive, at least regardind manpower.

And I would prefer a defensive bonus for units retreating in general, instead of nerfing T70. But we still have to see how it performs with the incoming scatter increase.

i don't think you can get a 5 min t70 out without the soviet industry commander,maybe at 6:30 or 7 min but not 5

T70s were borderline OP without any commander to boot. Greeb has a significant problem with identifying what early, mid and late game are. T70 are a Early-Mid game unit that has shocking consequences if not dealt with immediately. It can also pay for itself over and over if produced late game.

Let me ask if Shrecks aren't supposed to be a hard counter to T70's and Pak's are just circle strafed do you actually think it's fair that Osteer should group all there units together just to fend off such a cheap unit? Pak + PG Vs T70, T70 backs off and goes off to slaughter anything not were it's just been. Soviet gains regardless.

T70s were borderline OP without any commander to boot. Greeb has a significant problem with identifying what early, mid and late game are. T70 are a Early-Mid game unit that has shocking consequences if not dealt with immediately. It can also pay for itself over and over if produced late game.

Let me ask if Shrecks aren't supposed to be a hard counter to T70's and Pak's are just circle strafed do you actually think it's fair that Osteer should group all there units together just to fend off such a cheap unit? Pak + PG Vs T70, T70 backs off and goes off to slaughter anything not were it's just been. Soviet gains regardless.

by 7 minutes you should have a flamer HT, teller and a pak if facing shocks or pg's with shreks and a pak,so the t70 shouldn't be a problem,but if they get 2 of them becuase they are dirt cheap the soviet can just distract you with them while he gains territory and either transition into su-85's to counter your t3,if you just spam t-34's you will never win vs a player with decent micro,because the a well microed stug supported by pg's with shreks and a pak can hold off 2-3 t-34's with ease or get late game units like the is-2,isu-152,kv-2 or kv-8 out to compleatly hard counter your t2 and t3

T70s were borderline OP without any commander to boot. Greeb has a significant problem with identifying what early, mid and late game are. T70 are a Early-Mid game unit that has shocking consequences if not dealt with immediately. It can also pay for itself over and over if produced late game.

Let me ask if Shrecks aren't supposed to be a hard counter to T70's and Pak's are just circle strafed do you actually think it's fair that Osteer should group all there units together just to fend off such a cheap unit? Pak + PG Vs T70, T70 backs off and goes off to slaughter anything not were it's just been. Soviet gains regardless.

If the t70 comes out at 7:30 or 8:00, I'm pretty sure russia has had to forego a lot, possibly at-nades and molotovs in order to get there(and probably shocks in favor of guards). I could be wrong about this, perhaps there's a very viable fast t70 strat that comes out after "dominating" with molotovs, but basically you have to pick up an extra 25 fuel by that mark. When I see that play-style, the t70 pops out at about 10, followed by a second one when it can be afforded, and the ostheer tank follows at 12, 13 or never(which only happens when the russian player has completely dominated)

When I do a fast t70 I have to count on guards to support against scout cars or flame-halfs, as my only vehicle counter until the t70 arrives. I absolutely do not dispute that when it does arrive, it wreaks some havoc. If I'm having a hard time finding something to kill in the first minute though, because the opponent is being cagey, or is consolidating with a pak and shreks, I get really nervous. I know my window is closing... P4 to appear by the 10 minute mark. (and just to beat a dead horse, stug could be out by the 9 minute mark) So yes, I do "gain regardless", in recovering some map control which I started hemorrhaging. But that is about to start swinging back the other way.

If you aren't going heavy t2, and are teching to t3, you may not even need shreks or at guns depending on how far off your tanks are, but if you do have them, you don't have to worry about the rest of the map, you just have to keep your most significant resources coming in so that you can pop that tank. So defend the fuel and the cutoff. Then bring out your tank.

The fact that Ostheer t-1 + t-2 can mitigate and even counter a tier-3 fast t70 effectively as it stands, seems right to me.

Let me ask if Shrecks aren't supposed to be a hard counter to T70's and Pak's are just circle strafed do you actually think it's fair that Osteer should group all there units together just to fend off such a cheap unit? Pak + PG Vs T70, T70 backs off and goes off to slaughter anything not were it's just been. Soviet gains regardless.

Pak shouldn't be circle strafed. If it's strafed then is your fault.
Support it with a gren unit, or put a mine behind it, or place it better...

Soviets have the same problem protecting ZiS from FlameHT but even earlier.

Im not for nerfing the t70 but just for making it counter-able. I dont buy the argument that anti tank infantry shouldn't be able to deal with one light tank. If they cant deal with one light tank why are they even anti tank inf in the first place.

Maybe relic wants t70 to be a anti-inf wtfkill machine, but a anti-tank squad should be a wtf-kill machine against light vehicles.

Very nicely avoiding the part about the PG's with shrecks or the fact T70s are an early game unit.

Your getting very good at avoiding anything that could make the T70 look more powerful than you think it is.

Pak shouldn't be circle strafed. If it's strafed then is your fault.
Support it with a gren unit, or put a mine behind it, or place it better...

Soviets have the same problem protecting ZiS from FlameHT but even earlier.

it's not that the pak is getting circle strafed,it's the fact that it can't hit a moving t70.i have a replay where my pak missed a destroyed engien t70 that was auto repairing meaning that it was stationary.

In the same way you say a PaK shouldnt be circlestrafed, it can be said that a T70 should go nowhere near a 120 Muni upgraded AT infantry squad that has also sacrificed AI to get it.

Thats not currently the case. T70 laugh at Shreks while yoyoing in and out of range or LoS to deliberately reset the fire cycle, while sniping models off it for bleed.

In the same way you say a PaK shouldnt be circlestrafed, it can be said that a T70 should go nowhere near a 120 Muni upgraded AT infantry squad that has also sacrificed AI to get it.

Thats not currently the case. T70 laugh at Shreks while yoyoing in and out of range or LoS to deliberately reset the fire cycle, while sniping models off it for bleed.

you are doing it wrong then,try to ambush the damn thing,hide behind a building and when it comes out take some pot shots at it,never the less i doubt you will kill it unless you get a damaged engien crit

If you are hiding behind a building, the T70 can just reverse out of LoS. Know what I mean? You may not get even a single shot off due to the long aim time.

If you are hiding behind a building, the T70 can just reverse out of LoS. Know what I mean? You may not get even a single shot off due to the long aim time.

Dude, then send your replays to Relic and nerf the damn thing. If it can reverse without you having time to shot, then learn to ambush and flank properly.

I'm my game the most probably outcome for an ambushed T70 is it being destroyed by two shrecks.

What you can't do is charge towards one in an open area just because you thing the magic shrecks that cost you 120 ammo should deal with anything with armor.

Dude, then send your replays to Relic and nerf the damn thing. If it can reverse without you having time to shot, then learn to ambush and flank properly. I'm my game the most probably outcome for an ambushed T70 is it being destroyed by two shrecks. What you can't do is charge towards one in an open area just because you thing the magic shrecks that cost you 120 ammo should deal with anything with armor.

You are losing T70s to Shreks? Sounds like you are the one failing there.

With range and mobility advantage, T70s can completely out maneuver Shreks even in close quarters. Just movr in and out of LoS or range and the Shrek aim time is fked everytime and with each yoyo action you very likely kill one PGren.

T70 was, and is, overperforming anyways. It needs nerfs of one kind or another, that is not even an issue of dispute.

Perhaps Shreks need a faster aim time too.
For 120Muni, loss of AI and losing 1 model on most T70 shots, they are not perfirming up to par vs a light armor unit they arr clearly designed to be a counter to.

So much talk about the T70. The only way* to get boned by a t70 rush is when you go wild on T2 and spamming LMG42s before getting T3 out. Corrected for the higher starting fuel for soviets, the fuel cost for a T70 rush (T1>T3, no script upgrades) is identical to the fuel cost for a german to get T1, T3 and a StugIII.

Learn to pick up the signs of a T70 rush and counter accordingly instead of always blindly blowing your resources on LMG42s and T2 units and you will be fine.

* = excluding the OP soviet industry commander.

This is the problem with balance discussion, we have people who would rarely if ever lose a T70 to shrecks / fausts and then we have players such as Greeb that quite obviously cannot avoid this and it happens on a common basis.

This cause players such as Greeb to think the shrecks are a hard counter when they certainly aren't. Any player worth is salt can easily outmicro a shreck squad with a T70, they don't even die one volley. If you honestly take more than one volley of shrecks you should stick to AI games, or the Sheldt.

So much talk about the T70. The only way* to get boned by a t70 rush is when you go wild on T2 and spamming LMG42s before getting T3 out. Corrected for the higher starting fuel for soviets, the fuel cost for a T70 rush (T1>T3, no script upgrades) is identical to the fuel cost for a german to get T1, T3 and a StugIII. Learn to pick up the signs of a T70 rush and counter accordingly instead of always blindly blowing your resources on LMG42s and T2 units and you will be fine. * = excluding the OP soviet industry commander.

What?

LMGs have nothing to do with when T3 arrives.

And if you dont buy LMGs, which you shoukdnt get more than 1 of anyways due to losing 1/4 mobile DPS, if you di invest in Shreks, the T70 laughs at them from range and LoS yoyoing.

222s are even more laughable, and at fuel cost to counter earlier M3s, you are still behind when T70s arrive.

Either nerfT70 ability to outrange Shreks, or reduce Shrek aim time.

What?

LMGs have nothing to do with when T3 arrives.

Did I say it did?

Did I say it did?

lmg have to do with munis sinks,a lmg means you are 60 munis away from the shreks or not having 60 munis for a teller

In the same way you say a PaK shouldnt be circlestrafed, it can be said that a T70 should go nowhere near a 120 Muni upgraded AT infantry squad that has also sacrificed AI to get it.

Thats not currently the case. T70 laugh at Shreks while yoyoing in and out of range or LoS to deliberately reset the fire cycle, while sniping models off it for bleed.

The same 120 munition Infantry can kill of a T-34 in 3 salvos and are threat to any other Soviet tank except for heavy hitters like IS-2 and KV-8 so I'd say it's fair that they struggle against designated AI SHOCK Tank. It's not like they struggle either as one shoot can bring T-70 down to 25% HP? Just ambush with them.