Future Balance Items by Relic

You keep calling t70 a tank but in reality its a light recon unit. In the coh2 universe yes,it is a wtfkill machine, which I don't mind.

But what I do mind is heavy at inf not able to deal with a light armored vehicle.

The argument that you need two heavy tank destroying units to deal with one cheap,lightly armored vehicle seems out of whack.

Sorry, but T70 is a tank.

a tank in name yes, in function no

i dont know if pgrens with schrecks should be a hard counter to t70s , they are supposed to be a hard counter against soviet t4 , that said i think the 250 clowncar should get a speed buff to close in with the t70 a lot quicker .

Sorry, but T70 is a tank.

Yes, which means its impervious to small arms, unlike all other light vehicles.

Which is exactly why, at that timing, the Shrek needs to be more practically effective vs it.
This is currently not the case, due to the indirect result of T70 being able to move in and out of range or LoS while the Shreks cant get even a single shot off, while bleeding generally 1 PGren per T70 hit.

Currentky it can just play cat and mouse with them, as the cat. Whereas at their enormous expense, its the Shreks that should be the cat, or atleast a mouse with a very big stick.

T70s general AI efficacy is fine. But when Ost invests 120 Muni on a 360MP unit, it needs to fuck off entirely.
Does it currently? No. It can just bleed them from range and moving in and out of LoS while the Shreks bug out and cant get a single shot off.

Perhaps the solution is a shorter aim time on Shreks. This can be offset by increasing the reload timer.
To the result that Shreks can atleast get an initial salvo off, while then taking longer to fire the second.
In this way the aim time reduction, coupled with a longer reload, would remain largely the same net result in more protracted engagements vs Sovs later heavier armor as well as in infantry engagements throughout.

TBH I do not have very much experience with using T-70, but is the "yoyoing" really so easy and prevalent?
Given the input lag and retarted pathing I'd guess it requires really good micro to be able to exploit 5 range difference.

On the topic, if the scatter change reduces the ability of T-70s (and Ostwinds) to rape retreating squads it may be a good thing. But it's the doctrines that should be fixed as priority, and proposed changesto SI and TA are not enough, as many here pointed out.

The T70's yoyo ability is indeed very strong. If you just keep backpeedling and moving in and out of sight, you can kill any infantry. Keep it as support behind your pushes, and you can't lose it (and it will just annihilate any ost infantry). It's a strange decision, having the T70 outrange shreks. One would think they'd at least be equal.

If I detect my opponent going for a T70, I pray to god that I haven't spent too much muni on rifle nades, or even worse a FHT, cause then I'm pretty much boned.

The little tank that could is just very very effective at killing infantry. It even seems better than the ostwind (no doubt better than the FHT). And it can chase down and kill any retreating unit.

Preventive mine placement works, but that means no LMGs or flamers.

I never got why the soviet gets so many abilities to 1 shot models (or entire squads), when that's the greatest weakness of the ost, and the thing you cannot counter.

You can talk all you want about sov micro, but honestly, with 6 man squads, how hard is it to keep them alive? I only dabble in the soviet army (played 50/50 during the beta), and I always feel relief when playing them, because I know my squads wont magically get 1 shot by everything as soon as I stop focusing on them.

Bit of a rant, just always felt that the two factions were poorly designed in a lot of ways.

TBH I do not have very much experience with using T-70, but is the "yoyoing" really so easy and prevalent?
Given the input lag and retarted pathing I'd guess it requires really good micro to be able to exploit 5 range difference.

As you said, without input lag and considering a 1 T70 vs 1 PGren squad fight, then it's not too hard to do.

But in real games while you're "yoyoing" usually you are attacked by some other unit from the flank, or input lag throws you inside shreck/faust zone... etc

It's not an easy win move, requires lots of micro, few lag, and a enemy player without any other unit nearly.

Thanks for the answers, I'll need to play with them more then

I have always felt that their window of usability being of about 2 mins is not really worth it, because if you won't gain map control you are screwed by first PIV that comes out.
And single micro slip up could get you fausted and that window is entirely gone.

Of course all that changes with SI, that's why it should be changed in the first place.

Yes, which means its impervious to small arms, unlike all other light vehicles.

Which is exactly why, at that timing, the Shrek needs to be more practically effective vs it.
This is currently not the case, due to the indirect result of T70 being able to move in and out of range or LoS while the Shreks cant get even a single shot off, while bleeding generally 1 PGren per T70 hit.

Currentky it can just play cat and mouse with them, as the cat. Whereas at their enormous expense, its the Shreks that should be the cat, or atleast a mouse with a very big stick.

T70s general AI efficacy is fine. But when Ost invests 120 Muni on a 360MP unit, it needs to fuck off entirely.
Does it currently? No. It can just bleed them from range and moving in and out of LoS while the Shreks bug out and cant get a single shot off.

Perhaps the solution is a shorter aim time on Shreks. This can be offset by increasing the reload timer.
To the result that Shreks can atleast get an initial salvo off, while then taking longer to fire the second.
In this way the aim time reduction, coupled with a longer reload, would remain largely the same net result in more protracted engagements vs Sovs later heavier armor as well as in infantry engagements throughout.

If every map in this game was an open plane I might be inclined to agree with you nullist, but it's not.

While the panzerschreck upgrade turns Pgrens into an anti tank unit, that doesn't change the fact that the T70 is an anti-infantry tank. Both units essentially counter each other. T70 is able to kill pgrens if it uses its advantage of being a tank and stays at range and keeps moving, and if pgrens within range they can kill it far faster then it can damage them. To think that just because you got the upgrade means that they should beat the T70 under any condition isn't realistic or fair.

Its decided.

Reduce Shreks aim time, and compensate that with an increased reload time.

Shreks need that first more immediate salvo to offset deliberate abuse of range, LoS, the Shreks own input lag, and their current "lolhowdoifirethisweapon" bugginess vs armor that deliberately resets its aiming while moving in and out.

With the increased reload, it results in the same net total in longer engagements and means in the open field, they will still get facepunched as hard by AI as they currently do.

Yes, the T70 is an anti-infantry tank. But when Ost drops 360MP/120Muni on an infantry unit, that becomes an anti-tank unit, and the T70 can rightfully fuck off somewhere else instead of lahughing while exploiting range and LoS.

how can a term like "abuse of range" even exist?

you're basically making the same complaint that was made about the m8. that shreks can't chase it down. that it can harass the axis inf in the open. duuh, it's it's role. price considerations aside, it's not abuse of range or "molesting shrek fire cycle" (strange words to use about this situation)

functions of the shrek is being declared that it doesn't have, how about looking at waht the unit actually can do and how it's statted before deciding that the t70 is supposed to fuck off vs shreks ?

t70 is great vs units in the open, horrendous vs cover. so you have to give up some map control to reduce its effiency. shreks are great vs t34s and su85 because things like: a miss from the t34 main gun can allow them to charge from first salvo to get of the 2nd while ignoring a lot of small arms around them.

you can't complain about the investment of a secondary at source like a shrek to support your pak when the whole point of the two investments is that they multiply eacjh others strengths. the AT defense you are supposed to have out t1/t2 is faust + pak or shreks + pak

on their own they are weak, together they are strong

buffing the shrek to have a lower aim time is not a nerf of the t70, its a net effecting buffing/nerfing p.shreks vs all tanks

why "rape" the entire shreks vs tanks to nerf it vs t70

given that panzershrek squads aren't matched by anything on the soviet side, i think we should look at what they actually were designed to do by stats, not by wishful thinking

shreks on their own were a poor coutner to light vehicles in coh 1, this is a carry over.

Its decided.

Reduce Shreks aim time, and compensate that with an increased reload time.

Shreks need that first more immediate salvo to offset deliberate abuse of range, LoS, the Shreks own input lag, and their current "lolhowdoifirethisweapon" bugginess vs armor that deliberately resets its aiming while moving in and out.

With the increased reload, it results in the same net total in longer engagements and means in the open field, they will still get facepunched as hard by AI as they currently do.

Yes, the T70 is an anti-infantry tank. But when Ost drops 360MP/120Muni on an infantry unit, that becomes an anti-tank unit, and the T70 can rightfully fuck off somewhere else instead of lahughing while exploiting range and LoS.

It's decided?

I'm all for talking about nerfs and what not, but neither you nor anyone here get's to "decide" anything. At the end of the day it's up to the developers. quit frankly it sounds you are getting quite the big head.

Reduce Shrek aim time, increase its reload time.

Simple as that.

Faster first salvo, slower second one.
Same net result in longer engagements vs Vehicles too stupid to reverse.

if there's still the slower reload multiplier for moving nulist idea would be net nerf ;D

if there's still the slower reload multiplier for moving nulist idea would be net nerf ;D

Explain.

Huh? Shrecks already aim and fire pretty fast. Shrecks are not the problem here if your talking about T70's. If you make it so a T70 can't get anywhere near them it is the wrong approach in my eyes. The problem lies with the pak40.

If Ostheer plan a solid trap with a Panzershreck/Pak40 the T70 has no hope of living. Now since there is no cheap mines and no ATG camo in CoH2 you have to depend on quick timed combined arms hits. Without hold fire on anti-tank guns this is next to impossible when a T70 is led by Conscripts. Always knowing where your opponents pak40 because it fires at infantry first is a major failure of the game.

Likewise with that mentality even the shreck/faust method should not really work as often as it does if only more T70's are led by conscripts. I feel I beat Soviet Industry style of play simply by waiting it out and looking for that moment where my opponent does not have proper vision. This means I constantly move my shrecks/pak40 to regions where listenning in the fog of war I expect them to be. They make a mistake eventually, or I use recon run and breakout aggresively.

That timed shreck/pak39 assualts were the best method of countering an opponents well microed M8 in CoH1, and likewise a similar adjustment can easily be made for CoH2. Combined arms should always be the key focus and not one unit beats this. Relic just have to give us the tools.

it's a nice point stephen and I think a lot of people disregard what I would call formation, some times there is a situation where a vehicle first scout is okay (like a hatch open t70) but 99% of the time it should be "rifles lead the way"

mid to late game sending in anything other than infantry first can be detrimental to your strategy, you end up wasting time repairing or losing a critical support unit.

once common AT play vs t70 reaches the point where screening with infantry is 100% neccessary, people will realize that having to bleed that manpower to scout as industry doctrine actually is a significant tradeoff

@nullist it's very simple, in coh 1 there was a unit stat called moving reload modifier or something, basically was 1.5 for a lot of units, meaning that the time of the fire cycle that used reload would be slower for units on the move, how exactly it interacted wasnt common knowledge but it was noticeable

edit: (after rummaging through coh 2 stats site)

its not visible on the coh 2 stats page, but then again the site doesn't mention that it contains all stats, it has the DPS calculations but not the factors for the formula..

looking at the site in a bit more detail the stat could not be found even in the raw data. so there is a possiblity that they actually changed this around. i will try to look at this next time im ingame, sadly i dont have a stop watch to check

one indicator of a possible modifier being irreleveant is the min/max of the panzershrek being 8.25

im surprised that this was removed since it rewarded keeping still with tanks (overall rewarding good positioning and micro)

@Omega_Warrior, @SmokazCOH, @StephennJF

Finally some sensible comments in this thread, i was starting to lose my hope.

Huh? Shrecks already aim and fire pretty fast. Shrecks are not the problem here if your talking about T70's. If you make it so a T70 can't get anywhere near them it is the wrong approach in my eyes. The problem lies with the pak40.

If Ostheer plan a solid trap with a Panzershreck/Pak40 the T70 has no hope of living. Now since there is no cheap mines and no ATG camo in CoH2 you have to depend on quick timed combined arms hits. Without hold fire on anti-tank guns this is next to impossible when a T70 is led by Conscripts. Always knowing where your opponents pak40 because it fires at infantry first is a major failure of the game.

Likewise with that mentality even the shreck/faust method should not really work as often as it does if only more T70's are led by conscripts. I feel I beat Soviet Industry style of play simply by waiting it out and looking for that moment where my opponent does not have proper vision. This means I constantly move my shrecks/pak40 to regions where listenning in the fog of war I expect them to be. They make a mistake eventually, or I use recon run and breakout aggresively.

That timed shreck/pak39 assualts were the best method of countering an opponents well microed M8 in CoH1, and likewise a similar adjustment can easily be made for CoH2. Combined arms should always be the key focus and not one unit beats this. Relic just have to give us the tools.

Stephenn, you are talking about a Hold fire button on Pak, yes?

Imo the combined cost, positioning and micro required to pull of an ambush as you suggest is disproportional to the cost, positioning and micro of a single T70.

I still endorse a faster first fire salvo from Shreks, as offset by a longer reload time.
This rewards Shreks for managing to get into range/ambush of especially a T70, keeps the same net result in more protracted engagements vs later heavier Sov tanks, and doesnt affect infantry combat.

With a shorter aim time, Shreks can play the same cat and mouse, hide and seek as the T70 can, by moving in and out of LoS while firing shots in return to the T70s potshots.

With a longer reload time they become increasingly vulnerable after the first salvo.
TLDR:It makes Shreks, at cost, able to respond to T70s, but doesnt skew the subsequent engagements vs more expensive armor.

Ive used your Pak+Shrek suggestion, but it relies very heavily on a 2 unit combo, positioning and exorbitant cost compared to what you are countering.

Reducing Shrek aim time and increasing reload makes sense not only for the T70 engagements, but overall. Faster initial salvo, slower followup. Meaning Sov has time to get out before the second one, but is more vulnerable to ambushes as everyone has stated and agreed is the sort of placement a Shrek design should support.