First Quarter 2021 Balance Patch

This patch fill focus primarily on getting the core armies back in shape to create a solid base from which to move forward. We'll hopefully get to do a commander focussed patch after this, so keep working on those ideas for underused commanders, we may need them later.

Do a 2nd community commanders vote, that’ll be pretty sweet.

This patch fill focus primarily on getting the core armies back in shape to create a solid base from which to move forward. We'll hopefully get to do a commander focussed patch after this, so keep working on those ideas for underused commanders, we may need them later.

That's why I look forward to this one, the EFA feel a bit neglected lately. Soviet's struggle with sub-par Infantry until Tier 4, and their mid-game hinges on how well you can use a T-70. Ostheer I feel is fairly good although I don't know how well I agree with some recent changes; I feel they have a solid roster but WFA and UKF have overshadowed them with power-creep which isn't necessarily Ost's fault, but I worry that making Grenadiers into Ober-light would upset balance with the Soviets.

Feel free to steal commander ideas from my sig.

This patch fill focus primarily on getting the core armies back in shape to create a solid base from which to move forward. We'll hopefully get to do a commander focussed patch after this, so keep working on those ideas for underused commanders, we may need them later.

I fucking lost hope in the balance of this game, we are at a point where EVERY single unit needs to be changed somehow and that is not going to happen...

This is what bad losers would have you believe but game balance is very well done with minor issues only at top level play and some leftover bad mechanics or lacking doctrinal options.

This is what bad losers would have you believe but game balance is very well done with minor issues only at top level play and some leftover bad mechanics or lacking doctrinal options.

Indeed. Game balance overall is quite good. Unless you play at the very top you can pretty much play with any commander (though big team games do still excessively favor some commanders over others). This is a farcry from the days when we had stuff like no-tech call-in commanders that couldn't reasonably be beaten unless you also also picked one of those commanders.

3 things that have to be changed additional to those proposals Miragefla and Sander 93 already made:

• Allied Vet 0 abilities.
  Why do so many allied units have strong abilities directly form Vet 0? E.g. Soviet Morat (flare), AEC (track shot), Zis gun (artiellery barrage) and a few more...
  
  For example, mortar flares can be really punishing for Wehrmacht weapon teams and give soviet cheap recon in early game. Is there any reason why soviets should need such an advantage? I don't see any.
  Or Zis gun artilley barrage. This one especially is awful... Soviets are able to counter every MG42 and also mortars from long range and that for only 35 ammo. I don't think, that an anti-TANK-gun should be able to act like a better mortar.
  
  => My point is, these abilities should not be totally removed. Every unit should have a strong special ability. But they must get it at Vet 1 and not directly from beginning at Vet 0. Axis have to take care for their vetted units, so should Allies.
  
  
• Wehrmacht light AT
  Sander93 already made a proposal to buff Panzerschrek long range accuracy and decrease its damage from 120 to 100. That sounds fair and well. But with a range of only 35 it gets outranged by ALL light vehicles.
  
  So ingame, you buy a 340mp elite unit and make a weapon upgrade for 100 ammo not having a chance to compete with vehicles at range 40. And on top of that its damage will be lowered, so if you finally get a chance to hit, it doesn't really help you and and an AT gun is still needed though. So what is the point of investing so much ressources?
  
  => Lower its damage to 100 and increase its accuracy BUT also increase range to 40. In this case Panzerschrecks will not be a threat to light vehicles but can compete and are able to act as a soft AT unit, which Wehrmacht really needs since there is no light AT vehicle like Puma, T70, AEC or Stuart.
  
  
• Axis penetration values
  StuG3 and Jagdpanzer IV have not enough penetration to fight with Heavies like Comet, Churchills, KV1, KV2, KV8, IS2 and ISU. Give them abilities like HEAT or pen buff with Veterancy.
  
  All allied factions have a strong tank hunter unit: Su85, Jackson and Firefly. They all have 60 range and enough penetration to fully penetrate frontal armour of King Tiger, Tiger, Jagdtiger and Elefant; Panther and Panzer IV anyway. To clear things up, I will show you some stats:
  
  Su85 has these pen values with Vet 0 at far range:
  Penetration far 220
  
  With Vet 2:
  Penetration far 286
  
  Tiger has front armor of 300.
  Chance to get penetrated with Vet 0 at long range: 73%. Chance to get penetrated with Vet 2 at long range: 95%
  
  Now we look at the Jagdpanzer IV (StuG3 has exactly the same stats):
  JP4 has these pen values with Vet 0 at far range:
  Penetration far 170
  
  It doesn't get any pen buffs with Vet (except first shot bonus from camouflage at Vet 5).
  
  Churchill has 290 front armor. Chance to get penetrated with any Vet at long range: 58%.
  
  As we can see, Axis tank destroyers are way worse than their allied counterparts and have less chance to penetrate allied Heavies. But some of you may cry out now: Axis have Panther!! That is correct, but look at the stats:
  
  Panther has only 50 range and gets no pen bonus with Vet. Its penetration values at far range:
  Penetration far 220
  
  Churchill has 290 front armor. Chance to get penetrated at long range: 75%.
  
  You can see, Panther has almost the same chance to penetrate the frontal armor of Churchills at 50(!) range like the SU85 has against Tiger at 60(!). But Su85 gets way better with Vet 2, Panther not.
  
  => In conclusion: Panther is in a good spot and feels well. Its a pretty strong premium medium. But Axis tank destroyers need some sort of penetration buffs. Maybe give StuG3 the real HEAT ability from OKW at Vet 1 and buff JP4 penetration by 20% at Vet 2. These changes would bring axis tank destroyers closer to allied ones and are also no overbuffs. StuG3 is damn cheap and has high ROF, but with Ostheer already beeing heavy ammo dependent, a timed ability for 45 ammo wouldn't be that unbalanced. Not to forget, StuG3 has only 50 range and less hitpoints. And JP4 costs almost the same as Su85 with better sight, mobility and camouflage at Vet 1. But with its lower basic penetration and the 20% pen buff at Vet 2 it would still be worse.
  
  Looking forward to your opnions!
  
  

I'll just quickly pick out a thing or two:

3 things that have to be changed additional to those proposals Miragefla and Sander 93 already made:

• Bring Vet 1 abilities in line.
  Why do so many allied units have strong abilities directly form Vet 0? E.g. Soviet Morat (flare), AEC (track shot), Zis gun (artiellery barrage) and a few more...

I don't think vet1 abilities are generally favouring Allies (see blitzkrieg, several stun shots etc). Some other units just get their combat buffs earlier. I'd say, some abilities have just outlived the game design. For example, abilities giving mini map markers for example are very micro heavy due to fast game pace.

...

• Wehrmacht light AT
  Sander93 already made a proposal to buff Panzerschrek long range accuracy and decrease its damage from 120 to 100. That sounds fair and well. But with a range of only 35 it gets outranged by ALL light vehicles.
  ...

This is intended for all handheld AT to allow kiting with good micro. Long ago, handheld AT had longer range which shut down LV play and enabled blobs to delete vehicles.

• Axis penetration values
  StuG3 and Jagdpanzer IV have not enough penetration to fight with Heavies like Comet, Churchills, KV1, KV2, KV8, IS2 and ISU. Give them abilities like HEAT or pen buff with Veterancy.
  ...

I am also divided by that. I think it's rather the Churchill, Comet and KV1 hat need a slight armor nerf.
This design was on purpose: Allied do not have heavy armor on stock, but IF they chose to field them via a doctrine then Axis have to play smart and deviate from their heavy armor play. In general it still works and I think it is a very interesting design, just as usual Brits screwed it up with having stock heavy units.
Ostheer already has stun rounds on many units, I think these are mostly sufficient. HEAT shells would also devalue OKW commanders and cause redesigns there.

I'd rather go with some smaller adjustments to frontal and rear armor in the range of -10-20. This should already go a long way.
Panther is quite tricky, since its design is focused around mobility and armor/health rather than penetration. I think if we'd allow it more penetration, then something else would need to give.

I'll just quickly pick out a thing or two:

I don't think vet1 abilities are generally favouring Allies (see blitzkrieg, several stun shots etc). Some other units just get their combat buffs earlier. I'd say, some abilities have just outlived the game design. For example, abilities giving mini map markers for example are very micro heavy due to fast game pace.

Thats not my point. It's not about the abilities per se. It's about having abilities at Vet 0. Blietzkrieg and stun shots you mentioned are all unlocked at Vet 1.

This is intended for all handheld AT to allow kiting with good micro. Long ago, handheld AT had longer range which shut down LV play and enabled blobs to delete vehicles.

You forgot the damage reduction. I said, reducing the dmg from 120 to 100 would be nice in combination with 40 range. Therefore Schrecks won't delete vehicles as you say. And on top of that, as I also mentioned, Wehr has a special role in this purpose. Wehr has no AT LV like all the others. And PGs with Schrecks are much more expansive than Penals with PTRS or Echelons with Zooks. IMO this would justify the extra 5 range.

I am also divided by that. I think it's rather the Churchill, Comet and KV1 hat need a slight armor nerf. This design was on purpose: Allied do not have heavy armor on stock, but IF they chose to field them via a doctrine then Axis have to play smart and deviate from their heavy armor play. In general it still works and I think it is a very interesting design, just as usual Brits screwed it up with having stock heavy units.
Ostheer already has stun rounds on many units, I think these are mostly sufficient. HEAT shells would also devalue OKW commanders and cause redesigns there.

But Axis Heavies are also not stock units? Excpet the Kingtiger, all of them are call in and doctrinal. This is no reason IMO. And due to the last balance patches, there are so many doctrines right now which give access to heavies, there is likely minimum one in every 2vs2 game. And I don't understand, why allies should be easily able to compete with German heavies but axis have to play "smart".

According to the OKW commander ability, I also don't agree with you. With Elite Panzer Doctrine every OKW vehicle is able to use HEAT rounds. But my proposal targets only StuG3 with Vet 1.

I'd rather go with some smaller adjustments to frontal and rear armor in the range of -10-20. This should already go a long way.
Panther is quite tricky, since its design is focused around mobility and armor/health rather than penetration. I think if we'd allow it more penetration, then something else would need to give.

Reducing armor of heavies would be pretty nice if tank destroyer penetration would be also reduced. This would vitalize medium tank gameplay. I am in favor of this solution but pestimistic it will come that way.

According to the Panther, I didn't suggest anything. IMO its fine and fits very well in his role. Nothing to change here.

. We'll hopefully get to do a commander focussed patch after this, so keep working on those ideas for underused commanders, we may need them later.

Very good news, nice to hear!

Thats not my point. It's not about the abilities per se. It's about having abilities at Vet 0. Blietzkrieg and stun shots you mentioned are all unlocked at Vet 1.

My misread, I somehow thought you were talking about vet1 abilities.
Vet0 is a bit trickier though, since this is not about scaling but these abilities need to be included both into the price as well as the faction context and timing.
1 to 1 comparisons only work here if the rest is similar. To be honest unless we have very specific abilities to discuss (some on the ones you mentioned here have been discussed in semi-recent threads previously on the current patch) I would rather not, because this point of the discussion will turn into a huge pile of shit since everyone will just pull random arguments that somehow fit the discussion but also not (example regarding the AEC, closest relative is Puma, people might just pull the +10 range and better pen which will then derail into a completely different discussion). I think these are points that should be raised in specialized topics.

You forgot the damage reduction. I said, reducing the dmg from 120 to 100 would be nice in combination with 40 range. Therefore Schrecks won't delete vehicles as you say. And on top of that, as I also mentioned, Wehr has a special role in this purpose. Wehr has no AT LV like all the others. And PGs with Schrecks are much more expansive than Penals with PTRS or Echelons with Zooks. IMO this would justify the extra 5 range.

40 Range means that this unit is not kitable at all. It will invalidate all LVs and if spammed kill mediums (and basically all Allied tanks) in 2 salvos if you are lucky, especially due to the higher penetration.
Yes, Ost has a weakness in the LV phase, I think they somehow make up with tellers and an excellen PaK plus snares on all main line infantry. The 222 is actually okay vs everything except of the AEC. It can't duel a Stuart either but it usually also won't die to it. But it can block off a T70, get some damage into AA Halftracks, M20 etc. For it's price it is okay, and I don't see why current Panzerschrecks should not be able to fill this role. Especially since they scale very well into the late game. 100 damage still means that a lucky double salvo will destroy any LV. Meaning also that after the first salvo you will need to retreat because you cannot risk another salvo. Currently at least you can kite unsupported units, like all other handheld AT.

But Axis Heavies are also not stock units? Excpet the Kingtiger, all of them are call in and doctrinal. This is no reason IMO. And due to the last balance patches, there are so many doctrines right now which give access to heavies, there is likely minimum one in every 2vs2 game. And I don't understand, why allies should be easily able to compete with German heavies but axis have to play "smart".

According to the OKW commander ability, I also don't agree with you. With Elite Panzer Doctrine every OKW vehicle is able to use HEAT rounds. But my proposal targets only StuG3 with Vet 1.

Both Axis factions are designed to be played with heavies, either via a non-doc KT or having the Tiger in a LOT of doctrines. Plus there is the Panther and Brummbar, so Axis can field "thick" armor without any doctrine. Even more so: they can field it additionally to their heavy. This has lead to Allied TDs having super high penetration stats. Except for the Comet and Churchill, stock Allied tanks will be penetrated by a normal StuG or JP4.
Only Soviets have several options for heavy tanks. But even if they choose to do so, this will mean that their heavy is the only heavy unit on the field. Plus all of them are rather slow, so the whole army needs to be centered around them.
As I said, Brits screwed up this whole thing with stock units like the Comet.

Reducing armor of heavies would be pretty nice if tank destroyer penetration would be also reduced. This would vitalize medium tank gameplay. I am in favor of this solution but pestimistic it will come that way.

According to the Panther, I didn't suggest anything. IMO its fine and fits very well in his role. Nothing to change here.

My personal opinion is not to fiddle too much with pen values on Axis TDs. Axis have two late game tank destroyers that are specialized for their own purpose. Giving the StuG and JP4 higher penetration would make them compete more with the Panther that you would also usually get for that additional pen. This could then also cause a necessary rebalance of the Soviet heavies and the Pershing that are not in a strong state at the moment anyway. I think knocking a couple points of the armor values of some problematic units is probably a bit easier to handle.

...
40 Range means that this unit is not kitable at all. It will invalidate all LVs and if spammed kill mediums (and basically all Allied tanks) in 2 salvos if you are lucky, especially due to the higher penetration.
...

Shreck currently have 120 damage and it has been suggested to lowered to 100 so they will not be able to kill mediums with 4 shots.

Having that said I do not like the idea. The problem is LV and there should be other solution like a increased power level 222 or decreased power level ostwind.

3 things that have to be changed additional to those proposals Miragefla and Sander 93 already made:

• Allied Vet 0 abilities.
  Why do so many allied units have strong abilities directly form Vet 0? E.g. Soviet Morat (flare), AEC (track shot), Zis gun (artiellery barrage) and a few more...
  
  For example, mortar flares can be really punishing for Wehrmacht weapon teams and give soviet cheap recon in early game. Is there any reason why soviets should need such an advantage? I don't see any.
  Or Zis gun artilley barrage. This one especially is awful... Soviets are able to counter every MG42 and also mortars from long range and that for only 35 ammo. I don't think, that an anti-TANK-gun should be able to act like a better mortar.
  
  => My point is, these abilities should not be totally removed. Every unit should have a strong special ability. But they must get it at Vet 1 and not directly from beginning at Vet 0. Axis have to take care for their vetted units, so should Allies.
  
  
• Wehrmacht light AT
  Sander93 already made a proposal to buff Panzerschrek long range accuracy and decrease its damage from 120 to 100. That sounds fair and well. But with a range of only 35 it gets outranged by ALL light vehicles.
  
  So ingame, you buy a 340mp elite unit and make a weapon upgrade for 100 ammo not having a chance to compete with vehicles at range 40. And on top of that its damage will be lowered, so if you finally get a chance to hit, it doesn't really help you and and an AT gun is still needed though. So what is the point of investing so much ressources?
  
  => Lower its damage to 100 and increase its accuracy BUT also increase range to 40. In this case Panzerschrecks will not be a threat to light vehicles but can compete and are able to act as a soft AT unit, which Wehrmacht really needs since there is no light AT vehicle like Puma, T70, AEC or Stuart.
  
  
• Axis penetration values
  StuG3 and Jagdpanzer IV have not enough penetration to fight with Heavies like Comet, Churchills, KV1, KV2, KV8, IS2 and ISU. Give them abilities like HEAT or pen buff with Veterancy.
  
  All allied factions have a strong tank hunter unit: Su85, Jackson and Firefly. They all have 60 range and enough penetration to fully penetrate frontal armour of King Tiger, Tiger, Jagdtiger and Elefant; Panther and Panzer IV anyway. To clear things up, I will show you some stats:
  
  Su85 has these pen values with Vet 0 at far range:
  Penetration far 220
  
  With Vet 2:
  Penetration far 286
  
  Tiger has front armor of 300.
  Chance to get penetrated with Vet 0 at long range: 73%. Chance to get penetrated with Vet 2 at long range: 95%
  
  Now we look at the Jagdpanzer IV (StuG3 has exactly the same stats):
  JP4 has these pen values with Vet 0 at far range:
  Penetration far 170
  
  It doesn't get any pen buffs with Vet (except first shot bonus from camouflage at Vet 5).
  
  Churchill has 290 front armor. Chance to get penetrated with any Vet at long range: 58%.
  
  As we can see, Axis tank destroyers are way worse than their allied counterparts and have less chance to penetrate allied Heavies. But some of you may cry out now: Axis have Panther!! That is correct, but look at the stats:
  
  Panther has only 50 range and gets no pen bonus with Vet. Its penetration values at far range:
  Penetration far 220
  
  Churchill has 290 front armor. Chance to get penetrated at long range: 75%.
  
  You can see, Panther has almost the same chance to penetrate the frontal armor of Churchills at 50(!) range like the SU85 has against Tiger at 60(!). But Su85 gets way better with Vet 2, Panther not.
  
  => In conclusion: Panther is in a good spot and feels well. Its a pretty strong premium medium. But Axis tank destroyers need some sort of penetration buffs. Maybe give StuG3 the real HEAT ability from OKW at Vet 1 and buff JP4 penetration by 20% at Vet 2. These changes would bring axis tank destroyers closer to allied ones and are also no overbuffs. StuG3 is damn cheap and has high ROF, but with Ostheer already beeing heavy ammo dependent, a timed ability for 45 ammo wouldn't be that unbalanced. Not to forget, StuG3 has only 50 range and less hitpoints. And JP4 costs almost the same as Su85 with better sight, mobility and camouflage at Vet 1. But with its lower basic penetration and the 20% pen buff at Vet 2 it would still be worse.
  
  Looking forward to your opnions!
  
  

all axis buffs while trying to nerf the soviets (one of the weakest factions ingame)... nice bias you got there....

also the soviet mortar and zis need barrage/flare at vet 0 since without them these pieces are the worst teamweapons by raw stats...

all axis buffs while trying to nerf the soviets (one of the weakest factions ingame)... nice bias you got there....

also the soviet mortar and zis need barrage/flare at vet 0 since without them these pieces are the worst teamweapons by raw stats...

Sorry for missundestanding but my 3 points are according to the balance suggestions made by Miragefla and Sander93. I only wanted to add my points on top of that. So there are enough Axis nerfs all in all.

And sorry, but I don' get your point.... Soviet Mortars are 6 men crews and could get their flair with Vet 1. Where's your problem?! Their raw stats are exactly the same, turbo Axis mortar has been nerfed years ago.

And Zis gun needs barrage? have you ever played 2vs2 the last months? Almost every Conscript spammer builds 1 Zis gun to counter every German HMG. No need for mortars. I don't get the point why an anti TANK gun needs to act as an indirect firing option while there is a mortar team buildable. This is just beeing abused a lot.

Soviets are not one of the weakest factions. I'm sorry to disappoint you. They are the most played allied faction and have pretty good winrates.

And Zis gun needs barrage? have you ever played 2vs2 the last months? Almost every Conscript spammer builds 1 Zis gun to counter every German HMG. No need for mortars. I don't get the point why an anti TANK gun needs to act as an indirect firing option while there is a mortar team buildable. This is just beeing abused a lot.

Soviets are not one of the weakest factions. I'm sorry to disappoint you. They are the most played allied faction and have pretty good winrates.

+1 completely agree here.
- At least some Vet0 abilities definitely need to be moved to vet1. Its just not plausible why the zis gun get a very strong ability at vet0 but the pak40 can use stun shots only at vet1 and raketen also get camo at vet1. Same for UK pak...

- Another example for the vet0/vet1 discrepancy:
SU85 and JP4 have more or less the same price. SU-85 can use the spot ability at vet0, the JP4 needs vet1 to get camo. The Jackson also needs Vet 1 for his special ability...and so on.

Honestly, I dont know why people try to defend this discrepancy. If Pak40s could immediately stun allied tanks everybody would rightfully complain.

"The focus of this patch is: Core Armies, Meta Problems"
Moving strong abilities to vet1 would help a lot to achieve this goal.

as a top 3000 rank it is my professional opinion that we should give shreks back to volks and put sittard summer back into map rotation

They used to be 280. Brought down to 270 in October 2019

Thx for the correction. I checked briefly the changelog with the key word "section" and didn't find it cause they are listed as "Tommys".

as a top 3000 rank it is my professional opinion that we should give shreks back to volks and put sittard summer back into map rotation

All hail rurik as our new balance master xD. Just wanted to say thank you for the laughs.

On a more serious note, Soviets are fine. Sure ZiS gun barrage should be a vet1 ability. There is no reason I can think of that they it's vet0. Soviet mortars are also fine. They are in no way UP nor OP. The flare is nice, especially in teamgames.

I'd even go as far to say that t0 PGrens are fine and 5man grens are too. I only call bulls*** on discussions that grens themselves are useless like some people scream on these forums.
It would be nice that the 2021 patch has some kind of changelog before it hits (patch preview)

I checked briefly the changelog with the key word "section" and didn't find it cause they are listed as "Tommys".

Had that exact thing happen to me before, which is only reason I knew to start typing Tommy this time

But I think there are some parts where they are listed as sections still

In more than 15 games with these changes (Removed RA bonus from 5men, Osttruppen timing nerfs, T1 skip nerfs) on miragefla’s mod with him and other lv17-19 players in 1s and 2s we extensively tested the Ostheer changes and found the faction to be in an excellent spot after them.

Good stuff dude. Respect to you guys

+1 completely agree here.
- At least some Vet0 abilities definitely need to be moved to vet1. Its just not plausible why the zis gun get a very strong ability at vet0 but the pak40 can use stun shots only at vet1 and raketen also get camo at vet1. Same for UK pak...

- Another example for the vet0/vet1 discrepancy:
SU85 and JP4 have more or less the same price. SU-85 can use the spot ability at vet0, the JP4 needs vet1 to get camo. The Jackson also needs Vet 1 for his special ability...and so on.

Honestly, I dont know why people try to defend this discrepancy. If Pak40s could immediately stun allied tanks everybody would rightfully complain.

"The focus of this patch is: Core Armies, Meta Problems"
Moving strong abilities to vet1 would help a lot to achieve this goal.

You seem to leave out that soviets do not have stock nades, no stock ai upgrade, no stock elite inf. Wich abilities like the zis and su76 barrage fill in for.

Locking the dual role the zis has behind vet is stupid. The pak 40 is specialized hard at. You cant compare twp to barrage directly. Its not that simple.

The jagpanzer 4 is a lot more durable and has i believe a much better roff. So thats its camo is behind vet is reasonable.

This is what bad losers would have you believe but game balance is very well done with minor issues only at top level play and some leftover bad mechanics or lacking doctrinal options.

yeah right... if you overlook all the indirect crutch weapons, weird vet1 changes, the awful short early phase into LV madness, all the maphack abilities and a lot of other stuff I can't even remember because there are so many