Conscript PPSH assault package
7 Nov 2020, 18:36 PM
#221
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Contrary to what some people claim the Smoke grenade available with the incendiary grenade would too powerful for VG since the could easily removed hmg from garrison.
7 Nov 2020, 18:37 PM
#222
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
I can't see how it would be "too viable" given this is the exact thing volk MP40s get and we don't see all of the volks being upgraded because of that.
Also, it would be incredibly unsustainable, map control or not, given at least 30 nade cost and oorah cost.
However even stun nade would do.
That's exactly what i said.
I don't think it would necessarily improve the unit in a direction where it needs it and just make it better at a point in the game they might already be good enough.
I'm just cautious cause if the Mp40 package ever becomes too good, it's easier to adjust when it's on a single commander. Compared to the PPSH package.
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7 Nov 2020, 18:42 PM
#223
Posts: 1594
I think the thing about Smoke vs Sprint on CQC squads, as well, is that you can get smoke easily from other sources in your army, even nondoctrinally. If you have a mortar, pack howitzer, Sherman, Cromwell, etcetera, you can smoke enemy MGs to allow your CQC squad to sprint up and murder whatever you might like.
On the other hand, if you throw a Smoke grenade, unless your squad has an inherent sprint (Or your commander has one included, which I don't think is the case for any relevant ones) you can't fire a shell at your own troops to make them run faster.
I'd still prefer Sprint in most combined-arms contexts.
On the other hand, if you throw a Smoke grenade, unless your squad has an inherent sprint (Or your commander has one included, which I don't think is the case for any relevant ones) you can't fire a shell at your own troops to make them run faster.
I'd still prefer Sprint in most combined-arms contexts.
7 Nov 2020, 18:46 PM
#224
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Even with 40muni PPSH, you still didn't want to use Cons against OKW.
Right I see what you're saying now. Can't remember if I have time periods correct but this was probably during the reign of penals
3-6 PPSH can be fine but require much more tweaking than it's worth. For starters, i don't think you can just paste their current performance, give them 6x and call it a day. It would probable see an individual performance nerf with slight better 6 man performance but at the end of the day it would be an overall nerf cause it's better to have less weapon with better performance.
Imagine if we were to nerf G43 on Grens and give them 4 instead. They would suck ass.
For sure, I agree with everything here. As far as I know OPs 6 ppsh suggestion included no tweaking. And if it did, I still think you'd be right to say it's too much of a change
As far as the SVT goes, i do think it walks a thin line but i think it's easier to adjust the commander, specially when you can just balance the IL2 rocket strafe without affecting other commanders. If anything this last months, we know that the commanders is not carrying the Soviets, at least on 1v1.
The commander point is totally valid. Part of me also thinks Relic wanted the new commanders to shine a little, but maybe that's being too cynical
7 Nov 2020, 19:16 PM
#225
Posts: 186 | Subs: 1
I like JibberJabberJobber's idea on this matter. This seems like this would give them a little nudge without them growing too strong.
''Increases veterancy gain by 20%.
Munition cost from 60 to 45 munitions.
PPSH Conscripts become quite good once they're fully vetted. From some limited tests they seemed to be able to beat vetted MP40 Volks reliably in a straight-up 1v1. I don't want to touch the raw performance of this ability, because it's part of some already strong doctrines and bundled with hit the dirt. Instead, PPSH Conscripts should be able to reach their full potential earlier with faster veterancy gain (same bonus as 7 men Conscript upgrade) and better affordability.''
''Increases veterancy gain by 20%.
Munition cost from 60 to 45 munitions.
PPSH Conscripts become quite good once they're fully vetted. From some limited tests they seemed to be able to beat vetted MP40 Volks reliably in a straight-up 1v1. I don't want to touch the raw performance of this ability, because it's part of some already strong doctrines and bundled with hit the dirt. Instead, PPSH Conscripts should be able to reach their full potential earlier with faster veterancy gain (same bonus as 7 men Conscript upgrade) and better affordability.''
7 Nov 2020, 19:18 PM
#226
Posts: 1979
Read what I said again and tell me how you could possibly pull that out? I said sprint is better not that smoke is useless
Shocks also have nothing to do with what I said. You know you can use hoorah to flank and go around things right? It's a lot more surprising than a squad walking through a smoke grenade they just threw
kat is right though... smoke allows you to approach a squad without taking damage... it also has alot of utility purposes beyond just plain old mobility...
7 Nov 2020, 19:20 PM
#227
Posts: 1979
I like JibberJabberJobber's idea on this matter. This seems like this would give them a little nudge without them growing too strong.
''Increases veterancy gain by 20%.
Munition cost from 60 to 45 munitions.
PPSH Conscripts become quite good once they're fully vetted. From some limited tests they seemed to be able to beat vetted MP40 Volks reliably in a straight-up 1v1. I don't want to touch the raw performance of this ability, because it's part of some already strong doctrines and bundled with hit the dirt. Instead, PPSH Conscripts should be able to reach their full potential earlier with faster veterancy gain (same bonus as 7 men Conscript upgrade) and better affordability.''
i think mid-long DPS to match the MP40`s dps curve and some sort of HE/concussion grenade should also be considered...
7 Nov 2020, 19:34 PM
#228
Posts: 186 | Subs: 1
i think mid-long DPS to match the MP40`s dps curve and some sort of HE/concussion grenade should also be considered...
I think this could be done by giving the cons 6 ppsh and tweaking the ppsh to match volk mp40 performance. I have only skimmed this tread yet but it seems that people are resistant to this idea.
7 Nov 2020, 19:39 PM
#229
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Right I see what you're saying now. Can't remember if I have time periods correct but this was probably during the reign of penals
...
It was after "DBP" so long after Penal/flamers and Ppsh conscripts so allot of use.
7 Nov 2020, 19:39 PM
#230
Posts: 1979
I think this could be done by giving the cons 6 ppsh and tweaking the ppsh to match volk mp40 performance. I have only skimmed this tread yet but it seems that people are resistant to this idea.
well as pointed out the danger with 6 PPSH would be vet 3 6 PPSH cons... which is why im inclined to agree now that 6xPPSH may be dangerous... instead it may be wiser to give them utility buffs such as an HE/concussion grenade increased veterancy rate and a rework of their mid-long DPS curve
7 Nov 2020, 19:46 PM
#231
Posts: 573
uhh conscript PPSHs drop in DPS sharply beyond range 10... far more than volk mp40 do... at range 20 volk mp40s have the more DPS as the mosin nagant at 2.7 vs 1.9 while cons ppsh have 0.691
Just checked. Conscript PPSh's were the only combat unit SMG that didnt get buff. There you go. that explains why they suck balls
To add insult to injury cons also get 3 smg's compared to 5/6 of volks and assgrens, I guess 3 PPSh' were "too strong" to do anything beyond point blank
7 Nov 2020, 19:51 PM
#232
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Just checked. Conscript PPSh's were the only combat unit SMG that didnt get buff. There you go. that explains why they suck balls
Nice theory but wrong since the majority of units using SMG have only SMGs and thus little mid/far DPS. Conscripts on the other hand use bolt action/smgs and thus already have DPS beyond 10 meters.
PPsh conscripts are simply not that bad.
7 Nov 2020, 19:52 PM
#233
Posts: 573
Nice theory but wrong since the majority of units using SMG have only SMGs and thus little mid/far DPS. Conscripts on the other hand use bolt action/smgs and thus already have DPS beyond 10 meters.
Yea majority of units dont have only three smgs either.
7 Nov 2020, 19:55 PM
#234
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Yea majority of units dont have only three smgs either.
And you fail to understand the benefits of having 3 transferable SMGs.
Having 3 SMG means that conscripts lose less close DPS when they lose entities.
That is why ST are not a very successful squad because when they lose a model they lose 25% of their DPS while ST44 Ober retain most of their DPS.
7 Nov 2020, 19:56 PM
#235
Posts: 573
And you fail to understand the benefits of having 3 transferable SMGs.
Having 3 SMG means that conscripts lose less close DPS one the lose entities.
That is why ST are not a very successful squad because when they lose a model they lose 25% of their DPS.
If three smgs are such an advantage why nobody seen PPSh for last couple of years?
7 Nov 2020, 20:16 PM
#237
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Just like penals, su-76, M5 and many, many other non meta units - they are way too amazing for us plebs to use them effectively, only micro demigods, like vipper there know their true value and have skill high enough to unlock their full potential.
If you think they are bad, that's just your bad theory, you noob pleb.
This is literally your exact attitude 90% of the time you post
No one said ppshs are amazing. Not me. Not vipper. We have simply said they aren't as bad as OP is suggesting, and that giving SIX of them to cons without any tuning is a bad suggestion
Stop making shit up
7 Nov 2020, 20:18 PM
#238
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
This is literally your exact attitude 90% of the time you post
No one said ppshs are amazing. Not me. Not vipper. We have simply said they aren't as bad as OP is suggesting, and that giving SIX of them to cons without any tuning is a bad suggestion
Stop making shit up
1) Neither I am saying they should be 6 man, I've already said what could help them without making them no-brainer choice.
2) You have missed my point like B-4 misses max range target.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
7 Nov 2020, 20:20 PM
#239
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
1) Neither I am saying they should be 6 man, I've already said what could help them without making them no-brainer choice.
I didn't say that you did. I was explaining what Vipper and I said, as you tried to mock someone for something they did not say. I did not talk about your opinions on ppsh at all. I was talking about ours
Ppshs are not as bad as OP suggested. No one thinks they are amazing
2) You have missed my point like B-4 misses max range target.
You didn't have a point, which is why you just repeated that dumb joke for the 600th time
7 Nov 2020, 20:27 PM
#240
Posts: 1273
So it's cool that everyone for once is unified to a certain degree that PPSH isn't great and that they need a buff (even both the Axis & Allies players agree for once). What should we do go bring some power back to that commander?
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