Why Ostheer is OP

This would presumably include neutral territory, or it wouldn't really make a difference for the initial Ostruppen opening. I still think Speed debuffs are a bad idea, they're just going to be annoying.

Can be annoying for sure, but it would really highlight ostroppens supposed role. I'm a firl believer that doctrinal units/ upgrades shouldn't completely replace the core units so ostroppen being cheap defenders (could even be buffed) would still leave room for grens in the scheme of things which imo is ideal.

The MG42 and Panzergrens have been broken for a while now. Those are the two most OP units in the game right now.

Panzergrens are rediculously broken because they are guaranteed now that you build them from the HQ, so they're arriving too early and they didn't get any kind of preformance nerf as a result. They are incredibly durable despite being a 4 man sqaud.
They also don't even lose much AI ability especially when you've got a vetted blob of 3 squads of them, they still retain their rediculouly powerful bundle grenade even when upgraded to double schreks. The only similar Allied unit as far as preformance/abilities might be Rangers or Paratroopers but those are doctrinal, aren't as blobbale, and I don't think their AI abilities are nearly as good when equipped with AT weapons.

MG42 - Well this one is obvious and is undoubtedly the most OP unit in the game in terms of timing, cost, and preformance. It is the best machine gun the game has, it supresses better than any other MG, has as wide an arch as any other MG, vets quickly, gets AP incendiary rounds that can kill most light vehicles in just one or two bursts making it the best anti-light vehicle MG in the game. And yet, it costs the same as Maxium and Vickers which are far worse, and costs less than a .50 cal whose only advantage is in deployment time. This thing is laughbly broken.

Panzergrenadiers armed with Shrecks are not terribly threatening AI combatants, other than from their Bundle grenade. This isn't enough to carry them in infantry fights.

Movement speed penalties for Ostruppen is pretty dumb,and unprecedented, honestly. Making them buildable instead of a callin (as all units should be, in my opinion) and slowing down their building so they don't reach critical mass as quickly would be a better solution. Their combat performance is not their issue.

Removing Fausts from 5man Grens is kind of an absurd nerf. It does nothing to what people complain about regarding 5man Grens, while making them completely defenseless vs light vehicles, and obviously vs heavier ones. Reducing or removing, dependent on how much a difference it really makes, their RA bonus would be better.

I think Pgrens primarily cause issues due to their synergy with the currently overperforming (in 1v1) Ostruppen. I'm not sure they particularly need moving, nor their Shreck upgrade. Feel free to provide a counterargument for this.

What's the logic on pushing back BP3, anyway? Is it widely considered that OST get their mediums too quickly? I wasnt really aware of it being particularly faster or cheaper than other armies.

Im not sure why the OST sniper specifically needs its ROF at vet toning down, either. I'm testing it in cheatmod right now, and while a vet3 OST sniper fires more quickly than a vet3 Soviet sniper, it really doesnt seem to be egregiously faster.


What are the winrates like for Ostruppen and VSL builds, anyway? They certainly seem to get used a lot, but I haven't seen any statistics on how they actually fare.

My proposal was a debuff while out of cover, there still plenty of cover on maps to let them run at normal speed.

But the capture rate nerf or speed debuff only on neutral/enemy territory are also something interesting to dig in.

I stand with the idea to remove 5men gren the pfaust. I see the 5men gren squad as an elite variant of the squad and as any elite infantry squad: no pfaust/atnade available to them.

As for Pzgren, they also synergy too well with Grenadiers simply because they hit the field too early for Soviet and USF to have the same firepower from their infantry. Soviet are stuck with Cons and USF need to pay to unlock BARs.
I didn't say shreck should be lock behing BP2 but T2 built so you must spend fuel if you want to use them. So Ostheer cannot have it all just with pfaust/mines and shreck and skip T2 even if their opponent build light vehicle.

Ostheer is only op because the faction has the best timings, but ostheer also the has the worst timing

My proposal was a debuff while out of cover, there still plenty of cover on maps to let them run at normal speed.

But the capture rate nerf or speed debuff only on neutral/enemy territory are also something interesting to dig in.

I stand with the idea to remove 5men gren the pfaust. I see the 5men gren squad as an elite variant of the squad and as any elite infantry squad: no pfaust/atnade available to them.

5man grens aren't really at "Elite squad" level. It's a very good upgrade, but calling them "elite" is perhaps going a little far. A weapons upgrade removing a squad's snare is also a bit unusual, the only other example of this I can think of is the Panzerfusilier's Shreck upgrade removing their AT grenade... which is understandable. A reduction or removal of the squad's extra RA bonus would really be better, in my opinion.

5man grens aren't really at "Elite squad" level. It's a very good upgrade, but calling them "elite" is perhaps going a little far. A weapons upgrade removing a squad's snare is also a bit unusual, the only other example of this I can think of is the Panzerfusilier's Shreck upgrade removing their AT grenade... which is understandable. A reduction or removal of the squad's extra RA bonus would really be better, in my opinion.

If you think so, but you're simply going to kill the only reason you chose this doctrine. 5men Grens have to be strong cuz they are the bread and butter for the doctrine. Removing the pfaust give them proper counters and force the player to build proper AT support. The doctrine is still strong but 5men grens have counters.

...
I stand with the idea to remove 5men gren the pfaust. I see the 5men gren squad as an elite variant of the squad and as any elite infantry squad: no pfaust/atnade available to them.
...

With same logic 7 men conscripts are "elite variant of the squad and as any elite infantry squad: no pfaust/atnade available to them."

I stand with the idea to remove 5men gren the pfaust. I see the 5men gren squad as an elite variant of the squad and as any elite infantry squad: no pfaust/atnade available to them..

No

Please don’t get hung up on details from other people’s proposals. Evaluating them is fine, just don’t start nitpicking details. I’d like posts to stay on topic completely.

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198021567998


Well that didn’t go very well.

OK, I can take back what I said. No link to the playercard on your profile led me to make bad calls.

BUT, I still wonder why you take specifically Ostheer's "unbalanced" units as any more broken than other faction's.

OK, I can take back what I said. No link to the playercard on your profile led me to make bad calls.

BUT, I still wonder why you take specifically Ostheer's "unbalanced" units as any more broken than other faction's.

Really every faction has some overperforming units, and some underperforming ones. Ostheer is in the enviable position of generally having units that perform well, with a couple outliers that are a little "too" strong. Perhaps that is why. Or alliabooing. Could be a combination of either.

I wrote a little thing about the other factions too but it's not really relevant to the thread so i deleted it.

Fast PGs are the thing, because ppl skip T1, ppl skip T1 because they pick osttroppens\sturmgrenadiers paired with MG42, they pick them because stock grens are shit vs USF\UKF.

The only sole reason to go for T1 - either you want sniper paired with osts or you want 5 men grenadriers. Even PGs in HQ just reinforced supperiority of meta commanders and T1 skip.

Cons arent working against OKW that good, Grens arent working against USF\UKF. Ost was given so many abusable combos to make them playble, instead of just ajusting Grenadiers against WFA armies, and cons repectively vs OKW.

Are we playing the same game?

Ostheer is at a disadvantage since Grens are way more fragile than any other infantry and cost more manpower to reinforce. British Tommies that outperform them in any regard and (that can be upgraded multiple times for the lategame) being reinforced for 28 mp is just adding insult to injury.

Conscripts don't even let the Soviet player bleed and are just as good if not better than Grens.

Panther isn't even doing anything in the current meta and 60 rang tds rule the battlefield.

LeFh is already nerfed out of the game, Tiger was neutered... which pretty much only leaves Pak wall + Brumm as a good strategy for Ost.

Oh and they took the cap buff away from Ost which was considererd necessary to compensate for their fragile inf.

But sure... lets nerf Ost.

Are we playing the same game?

Ostheer is at a disadvantage since Grens are way more fragile than any other infantry and cost more manpower to reinforce. British Tommies that outperform them in any regard and (that can be upgraded multiple times for the lategame) being reinforced for 28 mp is just adding insult to injury.

Yes, infantry that will have 400 manpower, 90muni and 50 fuel worth of side grades and additional reinforcemnt costs dumped into it, on top of being more expensive out if the gate WILL outperform heavily one that has additional investment of ZERO manpower, ZERO fuel and only 60 muni.

It would be EXTREMELY IMBALANCED if it was any other way around it, so perhaps its time to learn why that HMG42 was put into T0, why PGs do not require T2 anymore and why 251 can arrive so early.

Conscripts don't even let the Soviet player bleed and are just as good if not better than Grens.

How is that myth still alife?
Cons bleed HEAVILY before vet3 and 7th man, unless you exclusively use single squad against pairs of them or always engage from worse cover.

Panther isn't even doing anything in the current meta and 60 rang tds rule the battlefield.

Ofc it isnt doing much at 60 range.
You need to drive it a bit closer.
Panther is made for closing in and outbrawling everything, if you keep it out of range, you aren't going get much out of it.

LeFh is already nerfed out of the game, Tiger was neutered... which pretty much only leaves Pak wall + Brumm as a good strategy for Ost.

Lefh got exact same changes all the other howitzers got, same with heavies, so stop playing victim here.

Oh and they took the cap buff away from Ost which was considererd necessary to compensate for their fragile inf.

No, it was not.
This is precisely why it was removed.

But sure... lets nerf Ost.

Yes, because having a bad player like yourself, v or achpawel behind the wheel doesn't mean the faction is bad.

Are we playing the same game?

Ostheer is at a disadvantage since Grens are way more fragile than any other infantry and cost more manpower to reinforce. British Tommies that outperform them in any regard and (that can be upgraded multiple times for the lategame) being reinforced for 28 mp is just adding insult to injury.

Conscripts don't even let the Soviet player bleed and are just as good if not better than Grens.

Panther isn't even doing anything in the current meta and 60 rang tds rule the battlefield.

LeFh is already nerfed out of the game, Tiger was neutered... which pretty much only leaves Pak wall + Brumm as a good strategy for Ost.

Oh and they took the cap buff away from Ost which was considererd necessary to compensate for their fragile inf.

But sure... lets nerf Ost.

Obviously we’re playing different games due to rank differences. That’s the only way to explain such extreme delusions as Panther being useless, Cons not bleeding and Ostheer having fragile infantry.

Sections can outperform 5man Grens? Rofl. I don’t know what to say, that is absolutely delusional.

The fact the only viable strat in your eyes being paks and brummbar speaks volumes.

Sections can outperform 5man Grens? Rofl. I don’t know what to say, that is absolutely delusional.

Grens are 4 men and get terribly outclassed by Tommies.

Don't bring doctrines into it. Especially not the ones that lock out lategame content for Ost.

The fact that you have to bring in a doctrine (to proove that Tommies are suppsoedly fine) prooves that you don't have a real argument. Play some Ost and enjoy the 4 Tommies in cover bs.

Bruh...... you.... do realize he is top 50 in 1v1 with ost?
And similar level with remaining factions?
He literally can go around forums, screaming L2P at you scrubs and be 100% right about it.

And since you think you need "late game doctrine", that means you're 3-4 digit 4v4 player to me.... because ost T4 is extremely strong in 1s and 2s.

I will assume that you use grens exclusively, while he actually knows how to use HMGs and snipers, this is why you are being bitchslapped by tommies, while he beats them.

As usual, no argument from Katitof. Please come up with actual points instead of ad hominem.

Grens are 4 men and get terribly outclassed by Tommies.

Factually delusional. LMG42 is a superior upgrade to a single BREN and LMG Grens do just fine, meaning you don’t HAVE to crutch on German infantry, but it’s a must pick option for simply how overpowered 5man Grens are. Even 4man LMG Grens however are more than viable.

You mentioned some doctrinal lategame you miss out on with German infantry. That’s total nonsense. Fragmentation bombs are more than enough. The stock T4 is already dominant and the doctrinal lategame units of Ostheer aren’t that amazing but Tiger Ace can be serviceable, especially with panzer tactician.

There’s some major l2p issues at play here for you and the fact you’re letting them cloud your judgement of the faction and even more than that try to call me out as being delusional is straight up sad.