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Zis Barrage need longer cooldown

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GachiGasm
26 Oct 2020, 16:36 PM
#61
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 15:09 PMgbem

the jackson is another story... even now i wonder why the devs decided to put the faction with the most kickass earlygame infantry with the strongest lategame tank destroyer....

It wasnt like this originally, I belive jackson was ment to be used as a flanking TD and fast TD, with decent penetration, but design didnt work because behemoths like elephant\KT\JT when didnt care about much about that and pretty much when supported they were unkillable.

Point is being that all other TDs lack the turret or in case of FireFly have poor ROF, Jackson retain all of the advantages it had (range and mobility) while got proper penetration of other TDs.
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elchino7
26 Oct 2020, 16:40 PM
#62
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 15:09 PMgbem


the panther is pretty balanced against the SU-85 and FF... 4 shots to kill the SU-85/FF and 6 shots to kill a panther while the panther faster and half decent against infantry...

the jackson is another story... even now i wonder why the devs decided to put the faction with the most kickass earlygame infantry with the strongest lategame tank destroyer....


In regards to USF, funnily enough, you got it wrong.

The kickass part of USF infantry didn't came from the units itself. On 1v1 it was a matter of overwhelming due to RET + fielding main line infantry directly without cost in tech. And later the officers with weapons. What mostly broke Rifles were the doctrinal options such as Elite Rifles, flamers or 1919s. Alternative smoke on Rifles which made MG/sniper play hard. They were basically a mid/late game infantry.

Once things were nerfed and adjusted, let me reminder that USF was getting owned by OKW 1v1 due to the same principles USF dominated OH on release.


Jackson was a hardhitting glass cannon with almost no proper use outside of top 10 players. Basically unusable at extreme late game 2v2 or 3v3+ due to how fast it could be lost. It only became a god TD once they reworked the unit.
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Vipper
26 Oct 2020, 16:54 PM
#63
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 16:40 PMelchino7

...
Jackson was a hardhitting glass cannon with almost no proper use outside of top 10 players. Basically unusable at extreme late game 2v2 or 3v3+ due to how fast it could be lost. It only became a god TD once they reworked the unit.

It become broken when it was reworked and had to nerfed and still is OP.

Problem here is the unit become better vs both medium and vs Super heavies while having extremely good acceleration/speed and normal HP.
:)
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T.R. Stormjäger
26 Oct 2020, 18:04 PM
#64
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Imagine crying about the Zis3.
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Mr Carmine
26 Oct 2020, 19:00 PM
#65
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 14:44 PMLeo251

Losing a position (by a wipe or by a retreat) because of an OP ability like the ZiS or SU76 barrage is almost the same. You lose the position!!!


Almost the same huh and a op ability huh?

When you retreat you loose the position to. But if lucky you dont even need to reinforce only heal and its back on the field.

When wiped you loose a team weapon. meaning you need to spend a lot more mp to replace, the enemy might take it, or you need to make a big effort to recrew it.

So how that is almost the same is just wrong.

And the barrage being an op ability is not true imo.
But aparantly soviets are not allowed to force the enemy off or to make them move their team weapons. Not even a small chance to wipe if rng is willing.
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Mr Carmine
26 Oct 2020, 19:09 PM
#66
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 14:38 PMullumulu


than..at least give barrage the same CD like grenades


That is reasonable to look at at least.
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Hannibal
26 Oct 2020, 19:25 PM
#67
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I am somewhat astonished that a thread suggesting a very small change (basically removing the ability to dislodge two units in the same fight) sparks so much useless and wrong discussion.

And to the guys arguing about stug/su76: that's complete nonsense. Again: penetration values alone have zero meaning.

Regarding the actual discussion:
I think ZiS is an a pretty good spot right now. Hard to tell if longer CD would harm much. Probably not, at least I can't really remember barraging twice in a row anyway.
And to the 'dual purpose' discussion: the zis is the slowest firing of all AT guns. What 'saves' it is that it is almost not wipable from long range without rocket arty and that it is supported by the quickest snare unit in the game.
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elchino7
26 Oct 2020, 19:35 PM
#68
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 16:54 PMVipper

It become broken when it was reworked and had to nerfed and still is OP.

Problem here is the unit become better vs both medium and vs Super heavies while having extremely good acceleration/speed and normal HP.


I'm sure u understand the concept of "god unit" = OP. As well as correcting the fact that developers didn't put "god" early infantry + OP jackson from the get go.


Going back to the present, I think the problem is not wanting to give USF a Firefly clone, add the M10 as a non doctrinal option or some Sherman upgrade. Maybe even making AP shells a toggle option to differentiate between anti heavy and anti medium.


On topic: i think it would help if people actually listed the timers and make a comparison to other abilities.
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And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

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Pip
26 Oct 2020, 20:09 PM
#69
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Given that the Jackson is a turreted "Assault" TD (By virtue of being an USF vehicle, with USF moving accuracy and speed (I think?)) as opposed to the more static TD types that other factions use, has a range nerf to 50 been considered as part of a way to balance the Jackson, if avoiding it being a Firefly clone is so desired?

Or might that make it too vulnerable to the Panther? Perhaps 55 range?
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Katitof
26 Oct 2020, 20:09 PM
#70
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 14:38 PMullumulu


than..at least give barrage the same CD like grenades

Sure, but only when 5 ZiS-3 will become meta.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Pip
26 Oct 2020, 20:21 PM
#71
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 20:09 PMKatitof

Sure, but only when 5 ZiS-3 will become meta.


Do the Axis typically field 5 units with real grenades at any one time? Because the Rifle grenade isn't quite comparable, the Volk lavanade is fairly similar to the Molotov, and Pgrens and (particularly) Obers aren't exactly "Mainlines"
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Katitof
26 Oct 2020, 20:25 PM
#72
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 20:21 PMPip


Do the Axis typically field 5 units with real grenades at any one time? Because the Rifle grenade isn't quite comparable, the Volk lavanade is fairly similar to the Molotov, and Pgrens and (particularly) Obers aren't exactly "Mainlines"

Have you played vs OKW yet?
Or 5 man gren meta?
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Pip
26 Oct 2020, 21:16 PM
#73
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 20:25 PMKatitof

Have you played vs OKW yet?
Or 5 man gren meta?


5 man grens still retain the rifle grenade. An argument could be made for Fusiliers however.
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Vipper
26 Oct 2020, 21:29 PM
#74
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Grenades are completely irrelevant to the Zis barrage ability even more so with CD of the barrage.
:)
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Pip
26 Oct 2020, 21:32 PM
#75
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Its really one of those abilities, like a lot of stuff that the Soviets have, that needs toning down along with reworks/buffs to other things. Soviets kind of need a lot of work, they're rather unhealthy.
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Aerohank
27 Oct 2020, 08:31 AM
#76
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2020, 21:29 PMVipper
Grenades are completely irrelevant to the Zis barrage ability even more so with CD of the barrage.


Easy to say when your favorite factions have nuke grenades as part of their core army while the Soviets do not even have any grenades available to them in half their doctrines.
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gbem
27 Oct 2020, 11:07 AM
#77
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Posts: 1979

while i do think the ZIS should retain its barrage its basically the tradeoff for the superior AT stats of the pak... i also think double ZIS is sorta OP in 1v1s especially in the lategame... it may be best to increase the popcost of the zis to 15 and increase the mp cost to 360 for a start that ways double zis is no longer oppressive


of course this has to be done in conjuction with a conscript and maxim buff however...
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Protos Angelus
27 Oct 2020, 13:48 PM
#78
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 11:07 AMgbem
while i do think the ZIS should retain its barrage its basically the tradeoff for the superior AT stats of the pak... i also think double ZIS is sorta OP in 1v1s especially in the lategame... it may be best to increase the popcost of the zis to 15 and increase the mp cost to 360 for a start that ways double zis is no longer oppressive


of course this has to be done in conjuction with a conscript and maxim buff however...


Popcap cost would be a major nerf. Just increase the barrage CD by a bit. Don't know how long it lasts or what the CD is but an increase of 30% would do the trick. If people complain about that, then just L2P
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Hannibal
27 Oct 2020, 15:18 PM
#79
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 11:07 AMgbem
while i do think the ZIS should retain its barrage its basically the tradeoff for the superior AT stats of the pak... i also think double ZIS is sorta OP in 1v1s especially in the lategame... it may be best to increase the popcost of the zis to 15 and increase the mp cost to 360 for a start that ways double zis is no longer oppressive


of course this has to be done in conjuction with a conscript and maxim buff however...

The ZiS is already quite expensive and increasing the price of an to even above elite infantry cost ATG is a bad idea. If you lose your first ATG then this would be insta game because you cannot afford to replace it anymore.
Every faction needs at least somewhat feasible non-vehicle access to AT weaponry.
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gbem
27 Oct 2020, 15:48 PM
#80
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Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 13:48 PMProtos Angelus


Popcap cost would be a major nerf. Just increase the barrage CD by a bit. Don't know how long it lasts or what the CD is but an increase of 30% would do the trick. If people complain about that, then just L2P


id prefer not to see double zis at all in 1v1/2v2... that is a major pain to deal with especially as OST...
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