Conscript 7th men too much?

For the timing the upgrade is fine, but the timing creates an awkward gap between power spikes. I would rather it be slightly less potent but arrive earlier. Remove the cooldown bonus for example, but allow it to be purchased once tier 3 is built without needing the HQ upgrade.

I could be okay with this if it gets the cooldown bonus back once t4 is built. But I think it would need to be a little cheaper

Removing the HQ upgrades requirement doesn't do much. If your relying on conscripts you need those upgrades before that time anyway

Not sure where you got those numbers of.

I might had got something wrong, but by replacing values on an old spreadsheet (even if the DPS values are outdated) the cooldown DPS bonus increase goes from around 4.5% (near) to 13.5% (far).

Due to how DPS is calculated, the only values which translates directly to raw DMG increase in a 1:1 scale are damage and accuracy. Cooldown followed up by reload, have the worst bonus to DPS ratios.

Conscripts

To improve the performance of Conscripts, while retaining their role as utility infantry that excel at defense and supporting other units, we have added an upgrade to help them scale into the late game. The extra man and reduced reinforce cost will allow them to more effectively trade against opposing infantry while the veterancy bonus will allow fresh Conscript squads to gain veterancy.

New squad upgrade available after the Mechanized Armor Kampaneya is deployed.
Mobilized Reserves: Increases squad size by 1, reduces model reinforce cost to 17 and increases veterancy gain by 20%. Takes up 1 weapon slot. Costs 50 munitions.
When upgraded with Mobilize Reserves, weapon cooldown and reload on Mosin Nagant rifles is reduced by 30% when in cover.

Improved Damage Per Second (DPS) with upgrade:

Conscript Rifle: 3.61/2.6/1.98/1.346/1.0
Conscript Rifle in Cover: 3.91/2.87/2.21/1.54/1.22
At range: 0/10/20/30/35


Obviously the reload bonus has been removed, but reload is only a small portion of the dps in most small arms.

I could be okay with this if it gets the cooldown bonus back once t4 is built. But I think it would need to be a little cheaper

Removing the HQ upgrades requirement doesn't do much. If your relying on conscripts you need those upgrades before that time anyway

The T70 comes from tier 3 as well. A soviet player isn't going to delay his T70 by getting 7 man 'scripts first.

The T70 comes from tier 3 as well. A soviet player isn't going to delay his T70 by getting 7 man 'scripts first.

This has nothing to do with what I said

This has nothing to do with what I said

...Removing the HQ upgrades requirement doesn't do much...

Even if the upgrade were mandatory, players would still delay purchasing it until after the T70.
Often these days tier 3 is only built once the necessary resources to also purchase the T70 are almost available. By removing the HQ upgrade requirement, you potentially reduce the timing when a player would feasibly buy conscript upgrades by up to 3 minutes-as players will be incentivized to build tier 3 much faster.

Even if the upgrade were mandatory, players would still delay purchasing it until after the T70.
Often these days tier 3 is only built once the necessary resources to also purchase the T70 are almost available. By removing the HQ upgrade requirement, you potentially reduce the timing when a player would feasibly buy conscript upgrades by up to 3 minutes-as players will be incentivized to build tier 3 much faster.

What are you talking about? You can already choose to ignore the upgrades until after t70 now

But if you built 3-4 cons and don't have mollys OR AT nades before t70, you are in for a rough time

snip

Well that explains it. I might be getting small discrepancies but this pushes the difference between that 4.5%/13.5% to 8.27%15.53% if we were to account for the reload bonus which is close to what the DPS comparison showed up in the patch notes.


So no, the cooldown modifier doesn't increase the dmg at all ranges between 15/20%. It's closer to 5% to 15%.

Penals cost 460mp for their first one, fussies get close to 2 squads for that price. Map control helps offset the munitions cost.

If you want to add the T1 building for Penal you have to add a full truck for G43 PF and that is more fuel and manpower.

I think penals should follow a similar design as fussie but fussies are overperforming being able to match enemy map control and then match them in combat or exceed their combat potential.

With fussies you basicly get the pros of penals without the cons.

I was simply pointing out that poster was cherry picking stats talking only about a specific stat for specific weapon and ignoring everthing else.

Im not sure that Fusies and Penals are that comparable in terms of "What they can do". They've practically got inverse scaling. Fusies are terrible combatants early.

What are you talking about? You can already choose to ignore the upgrades until after t70 now

But if you built 3-4 cons and don't have mollys OR AT nades before t70, you are in for a rough time

That's my point. People don't buy the HQ upgrade now. And even if the upgrade were MANDATORY, people still wouldn't get it until after the T70. If you remove the HQ upgrade, make the 7man upgrade available after tier 3 is built but nerf the potency, people will actually be inclined to build tier 3 earlier to gain access to the 7man upgrade earlier. If there is a fuel cost attached to it, people are still going to be getting the T70 FIRST.

Also, who gets molotovs before T70? lol The AT grenades are important I'll grant- if you don't get guards, m-42 or penals with ptrs. But neither AT grenades or molotovs require tier 3...

Well that explains it. I might be getting small discrepancies but this pushes the difference between that 4.5%/13.5% to 8.27%15.53% if we were to account for the reload bonus which is close to what the DPS comparison showed up in the patch notes.


So no, the cooldown modifier doesn't increase the dmg at all ranges between 15/20%. It's closer to 5% to 15%.

Fair enough.

That's my point. People don't buy the HQ upgrade now. And even if the upgrade were MANDATORY, people still wouldn't get it until after the T70. If you remove the HQ upgrade, make the 7man upgrade available after tier 3 is built but nerf the potency, people will actually be inclined to build tier 3 earlier to gain access to the 7man upgrade earlier. If there is a fuel cost attached to it, people are still going to be getting the T70 FIRST.

Wait so you also want to remove the fuel cost of the mobilize reserves upgrade itself? You didn't say that before. I had mentioned that it should be cheaper but you didn't mention the cost other than the hq upgrades

Also, who gets molotovs before T70? lol The AT grenades are important I'll grant- if you don't get guards, m-42 or penals with ptrs. But neither AT grenades or molotovs require tier 3...

I'm talking mostly AT nades. I get Molly's before t3 on maps with lots of buildings though. And if you're going for early 7 man upgrade then you probably don't have penals or guards... Otherwise why would you be rushing for it?

I also play mostly 2v2, t70 is way less dominant in team games. I prefer to rush a t34 if it's not 1v1

Wait so you also want to remove the fuel cost of the mobilize reserves upgrade itself? You didn't say that before. I had mentioned that it should be cheaper but you didn't mention the cost other than the hq upgrades


I'm talking mostly AT nades. I get Molly's before t3 on maps with lots of buildings though. And if you're going for early 7 man upgrade then you probably don't have penals or guards... Otherwise why would you be rushing for it?

I also play mostly 2v2, t70 is way less dominant in team games. I prefer to rush a t34 if it's not 1v1

Misswording perhaps. When I said "HQ upgrade" I was referring to the mobilize reserves HQ upgrade.

That said, I think my point still stands. Currently if you are "rushing" for a T-34, or "rushing" for a T-70, the mobilize reserves HQ upgrade slows that rush down. By removing the fuel cost, you incentivize the player to build Tier 3 earlier then you normally would currently.

In other words it ok for Penal to have better moving accuracy but bad to PF to spend 80 munition to get good moving accuracy.

And if one invest 885 manpower and 240 mu on infatry he might get some wipes by minute 7-8?

In sort Penals good and PF bad.

Actually yeah, its ok for AI specialist to have very AI oriented strength within rifles as that's the only weapon the squad has to fight in AI(unless you're one of "these" people, who don't dodge satchels) over a generalist packed with shitload of utilities, flares, nades, AT nades etc.

Actually yeah, its ok for AI specialist to have very AI oriented strength within rifles as that's the only weapon the squad has to fight in AI(unless you're one of "these" people, who don't dodge satchels) over a generalist packed with shitload of utilities, flares, nades, AT nades etc.

You are entitled to your opinion but just because you giving fancy titles to units like "AI specialist" and "generalist" that does not make your opinion buck by an actual argument.

Well that explains it. I might be getting small discrepancies but this pushes the difference between that 4.5%/13.5% to 8.27%15.53% if we were to account for the reload bonus which is close to what the DPS comparison showed up in the patch notes.


So no, the cooldown modifier doesn't increase the dmg at all ranges between 15/20%. It's closer to 5% to 15%.

Strangely in the test I did 7 men conscripts vet 3 in cover beat in some cases 5 men grenadiers vet 3 in cover at ranges close to 30...

You are entitled to your opinion but just because you giving fancy titles to units like "AI specialist" and "generalist" that does not make your opinion buck by an actual argument.

Why do you think we're calling med tanks generalists and mainline infantry generalist inf?

Show Spoiler

That said, I think my point still stands. Currently if you are "rushing" for a T-34, or "rushing" for a T-70, the mobilize reserves HQ upgrade slows that rush down.

No because if you rush the t34 you don't buy the upgrade. You will get it for free when you get t4

By removing the fuel cost, you incentivize the player to build Tier 3 earlier then you normally would currently.

That makes more sense then, but I still think it should get the cooldown bonus back after t4

No because if you rush the t34 you don't buy the upgrade. You will get it for free when you get t4


That makes more sense then, but I still think it should get the cooldown bonus back after t4

That's my point. You don't get it because it slows the rush down. Plus you get it for free. If you purchased it you would have 7 man conscripts up to 4 minutes earlier then if you were just to wait for tier 4. But nobody does because it slows your actual power spike(t70/t-34).

Strangely in the test I did 7 men conscripts vet 3 in cover beat in some cases 5 men grenadiers vet 3 in cover at ranges close to 30...

Not sure what's your point.
I was just correcting how much the DPS increase (per model) for the upgrade when in cover cause it was weird that 30% cd translated into the value mentioned before.

As far as the test goes, i wouldn't be surprised.

Why do you thing we're calling med tanks generalists and mainline infantry generalist inf?

Change "we" to "I katitof" because you are the one trying to turn fancy titles into arguments.

"spoiler
its the ability to engage directly or contribute heavily when engaging both, infantry and armor alike, in case of generalist mainline inf, its the ability to damage/snare vehicles without specialized weapon upgrade"

You learned how to use the spoiler button, how cute.

Penals are mainline infatry as much as tommies are.
(Unless in your own bizarre theory UKF do not have a stock mainline infatry)

And Penal's satchel causes engine damage and can contribute heavily at damaging vehicles so according to your own personal definition they are "generalist mainline infatry".

And I have no intended of derailing yet another thread because you want to argue semantics, so I stop with these factual corrections.

If you want to add the T1 building for Penal you have to add a full truck for G43 PF and that is more fuel and manpower.

do OKW players have to tech up before getting fussies thus impacting their map control? i may have missed that in the patch notes but im fairly sure thats not the case, in which case it still requires 460mp for your first penal and 560 for your 2 fussies. thats an entire extra squad to cap and 3 combat squads for okw compared to 1 for soviet (sturm, fussie, fussie vs CE, penal)