Conscript 7th men too much?

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 00:38 AMSerrith

You used an arbitrary distinction to support the reason behind the efficacy of an upgrade.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 03:25 AMSkysTheLimit

No I didn't. I was just pointing out to you that it's not a weapon upgrade. As I have said numerous times, the fact that cons have no upgrade until t4 is the reason that supports its efficacy

I don't know how many times I have to say it dude. It is clearly different from other mainline upgrades, which are available much earlier. That is the reason its okay

It also just happens to not be a weapon upgrade... They literally keep the same weapons. That is NOT the justification of it's existence. It's just a fact.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 08:12 AMSerrith

Thing is unlike most weapon upgrades, the 7man upgrade gives a substantial DPS boost at ALL ranges.

Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 15:15 PMSkysTheLimit

I mean, might that be because it's not a weapon upgrade? You will find a similar phenomena with 5 man grens. Or bolster

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 03:52 AMSerrith

What I said was that the squad has improved dps at all ranges. What you said was that this was due to the fact that the upgrade was not a weapon upgrade.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 03:52 AMSerrith

Second I disagree that the reason the squads dps improves at all ranges is because of the distinction that the upgrade is "not a weapon upgrade".

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 03:52 AMSerrith

The FG42 upgrade for FSJ also upgrades the squads dps at all ranges and you have to agree that IS a weapon upgrade.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 04:41 AMSkysTheLimit

...

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 08:35 AMGachiGasm

Dont want to answer everything, since this can continue for ages with this counter aurguments. I will just say, that PFs represpent a good excample of what volks should have been.

Their 80muni G43 comes slitghtly later then STGs, make unit truly flexable at all ranges without butchering any of them and, unlike volks, G43 PFs are usefull during the whole game. And they also hit their top early with that 80muni upgrade, but because upgrade is actually have an thought put behind it, its suddenly make squad usefull untill the end of the game.

PFs benifit from all other OKW advantages, but they are just a plain good designed inf squad, with good designed upgrade. But OKW having good mainline inf doesn't make them suddenly OP or broken, considering unupgraded PFs perform rufly the same as volks, if not wost, early on.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 07:52 AMSerrith

Please point out where timing was mentioned as a justification in this post. Please point out where I argued the upgrade is too strong in the post this was responding to.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 15:56 PMSkysTheLimit

Once again, it wasn't, you are misunderstanding the point of that post. It wasn't a justification for anything, I was simply pointing out the obvious

It's obviously different from other weapon upgrades. And it's pretty obvious that a squad size upgrade increases dps at all ranges. You're literally adding another person shooting, so I still don't know why you're pointing that out

Hence the examples of bolster and 5 man grens. Which also "increase dps at all ranges". This will happen to any unit that can increase its squad size...

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 09:02 AMT.R. Stormjäger

Imagine having to justify how broken Panzerfusiliers are by exhalting them being all range squads and calling it a “good design”. The bias of some people here is sickening.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:25 PMSerrith

7 man upgrade also reduces the cooldown of the conscript mosins by 30% when in cover(~15-20% dps increase at all ranges).

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:25 PMSerrith

Even if the 7man upgrade didn't increase the squad size, it would STILL be a damage upgrade at all ranges.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:25 PMSerrith

Bolster does not improve the stock weapons at all.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:30 PMGeblobt

Broken? Combatwise they perform between a 1*Bar and a 2*Bar Rifle squad for similar manpower and munition investment. Their at snare range got (rightfully) nerfed, so the only advantage they have over rifles is their vision. And you trade that for a weaker pre upgrade performance compared to volks. There is a reason that they didnt get used much in tournaments despite Grand offensive being the number one commander at the time.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 17:27 PMT.R. Stormjäger

Imagine implying a 6man squad with 3 G43s with 80% moving accuracy and a lethal grenade, no sidetech for nade or snare, is between 1 and 2 BAR riflemen in performance and imagine stating that they’re not used in tournaments because they’re weak instead of because their doctrines are bad.

I’d be playing as seed 28 in ML3 had I signed up and I wouldn’t be playing Pfusiliers if I played OKW not because they’re not the monster unit that they are but because their doctrines are far inferior to the Asiamint Spec Ops build vs usf and soviets, while JLIs are the only choice vs UKF.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 18:29 PMVipper

Since the K98 has bad accuracy on move the total moving accuracy of the squad is not that great and inline with other infatry with "carbine" rifles like Penals.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 18:33 PMT.R. Stormjäger

There's no "LIKE" penals. Penals are in a league of their own on the move, noone comes close. The downside is they suck in all other scenarios, no cover, bad RA, etc.

3 Kar98s don't matter, once you get a blob of 2-3 g43 fusiliers going you can get some crazy wipes, especially with their new buffed grenades. Once you get on retreat paths with them you can get wipe after wipe. They're better than Riflemen in that regard, especially with no need to sidetech for a nade and less muni investment.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 17:19 PMSkysTheLimit

I have already mentioned this bonus numerous times. It still doesn't support your point. Weapon upgrades don't boost other weapons in the squad, they replace some of them with better ones. It's still a completely different mechanic

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 17:19 PMSkysTheLimit

All ranges *when in cover* But this point also makes no sense at all, if it didn't increase squad size the upgrade wouldn't exist because getting the 7th man is literally the whole point

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 18:41 PMSerrith

Again I'm not sure what is up with this arbitrary distinction.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 19:14 PMSkysTheLimit

....

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 18:36 PMVipper

In other words it ok for Penal to have better moving accuracy but bad to PF to spend 80 munition to get good moving accuracy.

And if one invest 885 manpower and 240 mu on infatry he might get some wipes by minute 7-8?

In sort Penals good and PF bad.

Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:25 PMSerrith

7 man upgrade also reduces the cooldown of the conscript mosins by 30% when in cover(~15-20% dps increase at all ranges). Even if the 7man upgrade didn't increase the squad size, it would STILL be a damage upgrade at all ranges.
Bolster does not improve the stock weapons at all.