Why Soviets are OP

nice joke...but lets get back seriously. The Zis barrage cool down is mostly ready whenever u need it. and cost the same like a grenade. it seems the barrage has even shorter reload cd than a grenade. Which is awefull since it wipe better than a grenade and have much more range. Much more.

look at brummbar. its barrage has more cd than a lefh.
zis barrage should have cd from 50sek

Without wanting to touch the ZiS/SU76 CD:
The Brummbär/LeFG comparison is nonsense. Brummbär can fire apart from the barrage. Its barrage is just a (very strong) addon.

nice joke...but lets get back seriously. The Zis barrage cool down is mostly ready whenever u need it. and cost the same like a grenade. it seems the barrage has even shorter reload cd than a grenade. Which is awefull since it wipe better than a grenade and have much more range. Much more.

look at brummbar. its barrage has more cd than a lefh.
zis barrage should have cd from 50sek

Alright then.

Give default SU-76 shots AoE like the barrage, just like brummbar, and increase CD to match brummbars.

Alright then.

Give default SU-76 shots AoE like the barrage, just like brummbar, and increase CD to match brummbars.

While it shouldnt match perfomance of brummbar, turning SU76 into a scott\brummbar like unit actually would have made it usefull.

There are some abilities with CD that are simply too low:
Zis can start the next barrage almost when the previous stops
OKW doctrinal flares can go up nearly as soon as they go out
Paras lmg ability can be used with little CD
Ostheer medic can be used nearly as fast as they end (mostly a problem with 5 men grenadier where they are free.)

Alright then.

Give default SU-76 shots AoE like the barrage, just like brummbar, and increase CD to match brummbars.

yeah. they can. but must double the price tag and let it come from last tier. than its totally ok.

oh wait...have brummbar 60 range and enough pene to even deal with high armor?

Without wanting to touch the ZiS/SU76 CD:
The Brummbär/LeFG comparison is nonsense. Brummbär can fire apart from the barrage. Its barrage is just a (very strong) addon.

so its ok, that the zis can fire barrage after barrage with nearly no cd? for a super cheap pricetag? to bully all team weapons and even squads?

while this is subjective the brummbar is still superior due to its AOE... the fact that you dont see SU-76s alot lately is just a sign that the SU-76 needs help more than anything...

the zis well... the zis could use a price nerf honestly

while this is subjective the brummbar is still superior due to its AOE... the fact that you dont see SU-76s alot lately is just a sign that the SU-76 needs help more than anything...

the zis well... the zis could use a price nerf honestly

Su-76 see generally fine for cost.

If it does not see allot of action has to do with the alternatives and not the unit.

while this is subjective the brummbar is still superior due to its AOE... the fact that you dont see SU-76s alot lately is just a sign that the SU-76 needs help more than anything...

the zis well... the zis could use a price nerf honestly

Seriously? What's with people claiming the ZiS is UP? It's like a Pak in terms of AT power but with just a slightly slower fire rate. SU76 and (maybe) M5 really need buffs, so T70 can finally get a well deserved nerf and Sov T3 can finally exist for a purpose other than the T70.

Seriously? What's with people claiming the ZiS is UP? It's like a Pak in terms of AT power but with just a slightly slower fire rate. SU76 and (maybe) M5 really need buffs, so T70 can finally get a well deserved nerf and Sov T3 can finally exist for a purpose other than the T70.

the ZIS could use a price nerf... which means increasing its price...

Su-76 see generally fine for cost.

If it does not see allot of action has to do with the alternatives and not the unit.

the fact that its barely used is proof that the unit needs some help

Seriously? What's with people claiming the ZiS is UP? It's like a Pak in terms of AT power but with just a slightly slower fire rate. SU76 and (maybe) M5 really need buffs, so T70 can finally get a well deserved nerf and Sov T3 can finally exist for a purpose other than the T70.

Unless i interpret it wrong, he meant to increase the cost of the Zis.

Nerf =/= decrease. If you nerf a unit by HP, you reduce it. If you nerf a unit by cost, you increase it.

the ZIS could use a price nerf... which means increasing its price...

Unless i interpret it wrong, he meant to increase the cost of the Zis.

Nerf =/= decrease. If you nerf a unit by HP, you reduce it. If you nerf a unit by cost, you increase it.

My apologies. I despise the ZiS-3 so it kind of subconsciously triggers me when people mention the unit.

...
the fact that its barely used is proof that the unit needs some help

Actually it could be an indication but hardly proof, since it depend on how cost efficient/useful it is compered to alternatives.

When maxim spam was a thing no one used to Dhsk HMG. Once maxim spam was no more a good option people started using it and realized that it was OP.

Su-76 is already a cost efficient unit , it vet very fast and once it hits vet 2 it has one of the best barrages for a T3 unit doing 100 damage and being able to kill full HP entities.

Actually it could be an indication but hardly proof, since it depend on how cost efficient/useful it is compered to alternatives.

it kinda does if either premises are met... say the unspammed unit is U and the used/efficient unit is E
1. no unit E exists to fill the exact same role as unit U.. yet U is still not used because it is immensely cost inefficient to use
2. unit E is considered balanced while U fills a relatively similar role to E however gets eclipsed by the superior unit

in the case of the SU-76 the second premise is true since the SU-85 is considered mostly balanced (at least being the most balanced of the heavy tank destroyers) while the SU-76 fills a similar role but doesnt have much going for it so it gets eclipsed...

it kinda does if either premises are met... say the unspammed unit is U and the used/efficient unit is E
1. no unit E exists to fill the exact same role as unit U.. yet U is still not used because it is immensely cost inefficient to use
2. unit E is considered balanced while U fills a relatively similar role to E however gets eclipsed by the superior unit

in the case of the SU-76 the second premise is true since the SU-85 is considered mostly balanced (at least being the most balanced of the heavy tank destroyers) while the SU-76 fills a similar role but doesnt have much going for it so it gets eclipsed...

Su-85 and SU-76 do not fill the same role.

Su-85 can counter all vehicles. SU-76 is a medium TD with added utility of barrage.

This theoretical debate is fine but you have not yet identified a single problem with SU-76.

(one of the few problem the units has is its cone of fire.)

Su-85 and SU-76 do not fill the same role.

Su-85 can counter all vehicles. SU-76 is a medium TD with added utility of barrage.

hence the term similar role... both units are tank destroyers at their core but one unit is not used because it is simply not efficient...

This theoretical debate is fine but you have not yet identified a single problem with SU-76.

(one of the few problem the units has is its cone of fire.)

1. rotation
2. killed in 3 shots
3. outshone by the T-70
4. not really needed since the SU-85 kills heavy tanks while the zis can work as a stopgap

hence the term similar role... both units are tank destroyers at their core but one unit is not used because it is simply not efficient...




1. rotation
2. killed in 3 shots
3. outshone by the T-70
4. not really needed since the SU-85 kills heavy tanks while the zis can work as a stopgap

Number 3 and 4 have nothing to with unit itself.

Rotation values are 32/40 when stug has 28/33.6 and JP IV has 20/24 so it better than other casemates.

That leaves 400 HP vs 560 of Stug III which again is not that bad considering cost and tech cost.

As pointed the unit is cost efficient as is and it not used because other option are simply better.

Number 3 and 4 have nothing to with unit itself.

Rotation values are 32/40 when stug has 28/33.6 and JP IV has 20/24 so it better than other casemates.

i was referring to the rotation of the gun... afaik it has like 5 degrees arc

That leaves 400 HP vs 560 of Stug III which again is not that bad considering cost and tech cost.

ehh they mostly cost around the same though the stug is pricier... but the stug has a large DPS armor and HP advantage in exchange for 10 range... imo the stug still remains well suited for the role of deleting or denying the lategame massed TD strategy of the allies...the SU-76 however mostly doesnt have a role being overshadowed by the SU-85...

As pointed the unit is cost efficient as is and it not used because other option are simply better.

exactly... but those other options arent overperforming (maybe except the zis) soo premise 2 is satisfied...

i was referring to the rotation of the gun... afaik it has like 5 degrees arc

I pointed out that problem with angle of the gun and I agree that it should be fixed.

ehh they mostly cost around the same though the stug is pricier... but the stug has a large DPS armor and HP advantage in exchange for 10 range... imo the stug still remains well suited for the role of deleting or denying the lategame massed TD strategy of the allies...the SU-76 however mostly doesnt have a role being overshadowed by the SU-85...



exactly... but those other options arent overperforming (maybe except the zis) soo premise 2 is satisfied...

T-70 is OP most people agree with that and imo SU-85 is OP also.

Once more fixing the angle of the gun will not suddenly make SU-76 extremely popular. The unit is cost efficient.

i dont think the su76 is BAD per say, aside from the gun traverse as has been mentioned, it is stuck between the roles of 2 much more efficient units though. whats more, it basically has no place at all against 1/2 the factions it faces as armour or mobility of okw mediums+/lights respectively leave the unit spending more time generating no value than not. whats more the barrage doesnt do much against an aggressive faction like okw, unless for some reason they are trying to win a cover fight against rifle infantry at long range for some reason at which point the barrage could certainly find some use- if extremely unlikely to find such a scenario in a real game.

i think it mostly boils down to the t70 being boss, especially against ost where the su76 could find a spot, and the AT scaling being non-existent.
id like to see the t70 toned down a bit and the su76 to get some upgrade or something at t4 to get it over the hump since late game its barrage often isnt enough to warrant its micro or pop cap given its durability.
su76M upgrade (i know the model in game already is the su76M but i wont tell if you dont) turns the gun into a zis clone, maybe 80 more health? make it cost fuel and manpower. gives it a bit of scaling it sorely lacks